Hmmm... videoOTguy, I can only say, first, that the test renderings I have done from this VOB file ARE IN FACT, OBVIOUSLY of better resolution than what I have done from the old AVI file. Second, you might want to check out the recent discussion in this forum by others about working from VOB files, none of whom had anything negative to say about VOB that I can recall.

Keep in mind that the AVI was digitized from a VHS of the same signed conversation. What has come into my possession is a VOB of the same material. So either my digitization process of long ago was the problem, or the publisher of the signed conversation had a master copy (perhaps already digital?) that was superior to the VHS they sold back in 2003. Either way, the VOB is clearly superior, as are the renderings I've done from it so far.

Put your VOB/MPEG file on a timeline and trim it to start where your original file started. If your original source was the same origin and had edits done to it compared to the DVD, then this should work.

Render the VOB/MPEG file to a lossless codec such as Lagarith, or I would just render it uncompressed. It will be big, but you don't need to save it forever.

Save your original project to a new name so you don't overwrite your original in case something goes wrong. Open your copy of the project. Right click on your original source in your media bin and select replace and then browse to your new rendered material. It should replace it on the timeline and if all was timed right, you should be done.

Dave T2

Is it a single VOB file or the whole DVD?
If it's the latter, try this great technique courtesy of Gary James.

Vegas allows you to open up a DVD .IFO file. This imports the entire .VOB chain for both video and audio tracks.

Copy the contents of the DVD over to your hard drive first, then open up the .IFO file from the hard drive copy.
Click File / Open, then navigate to your VIDEO_TS sub directory and enter *.IFO in the File name input field. For a regular DVD you will see a VIDEO_TS.IFO, and a VTS_01_0.IFO. Select the VTS_01_0.IFO file and click on Open.
The advantage of using the .IFO file open method over the DVD Import method is that it's faster, and when you are all done, chapter marks in the original DVD are included in the video stream as media markers.

Mike

I wish I typed as well as you, but since I don't, I'm going to be brief. I'm not going to second-guess all your steps, but I would encourage you to think outside of the constraints on sliding material to the left on the timeline. Remember that Vegas can have multiple video tracks. You could move your whole project anywhere on the timeline, insert a new video track and slide it around until you get a good fit. Then you could mute the one you don't want and render the remaining track.

As an aside, remember that you can copy and paste region and marker data into the spreadsheet-like Edit Details window under the View Menu.

You have previously stated you have two sources available to you.
I said that starting with the original segmented AVI clips are superior to your subsequent DVD, for a number of good and accepted reasons.
Since you have chosen to go with your second option for reasons that you find advantageous, I have no further advice or recommendations.

As always, best of luck.

Well, except that PeytonTodd has mentioned several times that his VOB sources are better quality than the AVI file. While he hasn't explicitly said so, it seems that the DVD was created from the same original source as the VHS, and then the VHS was digitized to AVI at half resolution. The step passing through VHS is sure to make the AVI version far, far worse than the DVD version.

You could have a fine oak box full of manure, and a ratty cardboard box full of bottles of fine wine. The nicer box doesn't make the manure more valuable than the wine. Well, unless you're desperately in need of manure, i suppose. So, while AVI has the potential to be better than VOB, it can also contain garbage.

To Chienworks:
-------------
Yes, the DVD was obviously created from the same original source as the VHS since it matches it in every detail except clarity. The only reason I bought the DVD a couple of years ago was to see if they had changed anything, and I simply put it aside when I discovered they had not. (Except of course clarity, as I now know. Unless of course the culprit was my digitization process.)

To DaveT2:
---------

You mean there's a lossless codec after all? I will certainly look into Lagarith. On the other hand, your word 'or' suggests that rendering it uncompressed is yet another alternative. I would not mind that in the slightest - my source file can be as big as it wants, and this would remove any doubts I might have that Lagarith isn't really lossless after all. But how would I do that?


To rs170a/Mike:
--------------

I'm only opening the VOB instead of the IFO because the portion of the full DVD that I need is contained entirely in its first VOB, namely VTS_01_1.VOB. I will have no need of the chapter marks, etc. With that VOB already not lining up properly with my regions, I feared that loading the IFO instead of the VOB would just add extra complexities.


To john dennis:
--------------

I'm actually a poor typist, but a dyed-in-the-wool academic, so I get long-winded for that reason!

As to moving my whole project anywhere on the timeline I would love to know how to do that! If I could simply move all the regions downstream a ways that would solve everything. But is there a way to do that apart from the Edit Details window you mention in your 'aside'?

Now that I know about that Edit Details window (for which thanks!), I can tell at a glance that I have 390 regions. I'll need only the first 226 of them for the book I'm writing (about the grammar of deaf sign language), and it MIGHT be worth it to change the start and end time code of every one individually. But it would be much easier if there is a way I can move them all at once.

And possibly there is. Based on your suggestion, I discovered that I can cut and paste them to a text file (apparently tab-delimited). While I haven't tried it yet, I could load them from there to a FoxPro DBF (or some other database program) and simply add the number I need to each timecode in a single database command. (I realized after I made my post last night that I could also write computer code to do the conversion for each hours/minutes/frames timestamp, though I subsequently noticed that all I had to do was change the time format to absolute frames to allow for a simple addition operation to each number).

But then the problem arises how to put the results back into Vegas. In theory, one might write the updated database file out to a text file, then copy and paste that back into the Vegas Edit Details window. But I just tried pasting back in the data from the text file I just copied them out to and it didn't work. Neither the online doc nor even my Vegas 3.0 manual mentions anything of the sort (yes, back in those days printed manuals were standard!). All I find in my only other Vegas doc (Vegas Pro 8 Editing Workshop by Douglas Spotted Eagle) is a single page on the Edit Details window, which does at least contain the promising statement: 'Re-sort, import, and view information in this window'. But it does not say how to import anything to it!

To musicdvd:

I don't remember you saying that starting with the original AVIs is superior - unless what you mean is starting from the 'big' Vegas file that has all the regions in it would be superior, where I would work from a number of split events (one for each region), and put the cropping and subtitles in each one separately. I totally understand your point on that one, and it's what I most likely will do for any NEW edits that are still required. The issue here, though, is how I would get those to line up with the much clearer VOB file when I substitute that for the AVI, given that the VOB file unfortunately starts sooner than the AVI file. The suggestions made by either DaveT2 or john dennis above will hopefully help with that one.

However, the second issue is how to use all the cropping and subtitles that I have done in the 'little' Vegas files (one for each region worked so far) that I've already built. Since there does appear to be no way to import those into the 'big' Vegas file (which has the regions in it, but not the cropping and subtitles), it does appear that for those edits I'm stuck with having to work in the 'little' Vegas files. So the issue is how to get the VOB file in a state where, once I load it each 'little' Vegas file, I can simply key in the start and end point of its particular region to find that spot in the Trimmer.

However, if there really is a lossless way to render each region separately that would certainly be easier, since all I would have to do would be to substitute the resulting clearer MPEG for the source in each 'little' Vegas file.

To shift an event to the left, even after it has bumped up against the 0.0 point on the timeline, click on the left edge of the event, drag it to the right. Then you can slide the entire event to the left.

Edit: Also remember that you can use the Paste Event Attributes. From what I understand, if you plan to add the VOB to the "little" project and move it to line up with the original AVI, then while the regions will line up, you will have lost the pan/crop. I infer that you have split the original AVI at each of the region markers.

Now you can perform the same splits on the new track, then click on an original track event, Ctrl-C to copy it to clipboard, then click on the new track's corresponding event and use Edit/Paste Event Attributes to apply the pan/crop settings to the new event.

Over in the Vegas Scripting forum you might even find a script that will do some of this for you.

Obviously, you will want to be working on a copy of the "small" project file, not the original.

Fred

"I don't remember you saying that starting with the original AVIs is superior"

"If I had a DVD and a DV-AVI capture from the same tape source, I would use the AVI in my project. The reason is chroma subsampling, but that's a level 200 subject. If your source is DV-AVI, and you choose the corresponding DV-AVI template to render, there will be no recompression.

Its to time to fold the cards, PeytonTodd.

I called you on this matter because I recognized that you probably wanted help pirating another's work. I don't support it and none of the other forum members should either.

You finally admitted it in your lengthy post - now please tell us why you deserve help in this project.

To the point. If you have one single source mastered from your own camera to VHS and DVD and then was trying to copy the copy -your .avi container will have a much better value captured from the copy. I realize that the DVD import (via .ifo open method) can look good on the timeline, but it will render poorly as others have stated.

The only way your .avi container could be poor, is that perhaps it was captured with a poor quality codec from a poor operating VHS deck, -yes you get the idea what I am sayin.

Well, we know his source isn't DV-AVI. For one thing, it's 320x240.

Since it's from 2003 it was probably a really bad USB-dongle type capture device fed from a VHS copy.

"Well, we know his source isn't DV-AVI. For one thing, it's 320x240."
It is? I knew something wasn't making sense. Now it's beginning to . . .
Editing and redistributing someone else's content? Covered in forum rules 9 and 10.

"However, if there really is a lossless way to render each region separately that would certainly be easier, since all I would have to do would be to substitute the resulting clearer MPEG for the source in each 'little' Vegas file."

There is a very simple way to do this.
1) Buy Veggie Toolkit 3.0 from Peachrock Productions.
2) It has a Multirender tool which will render every region to a separate file and you can specify the codec used for the render.

For your purpose a DV AVI file would be very close to lossless although if you're working in NTSC land the chroma subsamplig difference could in theory make a difference. If that worries you and you have disk space to burn then the Sony YUV coded is 4:2:2 which is better than what was on the original VHS tape, got encoded into the VOB files or was somehow mangled into an inferior AVI file.



The reason why the AVI that you have of the VHS tape is inferior to the DVD is simple. The AVI file was likely recorded from the same device that also made the mpeg-2 file from which the DVD was authored and some of the consummer devices were and still are bandwidth constrained because they had to just work with PC of unknown quality. The assumption that has been made by a few postoers here is that the AVI file you have contains "DV25" because that's what all of us would have used if WE were digitizing a VHS tape and from that we would have made the mpeg-2 file for the DVD. In that scenario the AVI would be superior to what's on the DVD.

Unfortunately though the underlying assumption is probably wrong. An AVI file can contain just about anything, it doesn't have to be full raster DV25, it could be Half D1 i.e. half raster DV and at a lower bitrate and in which case as you've seen what ended up on the DVD can be superior to the AVI file recorded from the same analog to digital converter device.

Taking that on board you too should not fall into the same trap. By default Vegas creates AVI files that contain full raster DV25 AVI files which are capable of containing superior quality video compared to the mpeg-2 stream used for SD DVD.



All of that said I too am wondering why you're not just putting your hand in your pocket and hiring a signer and reshooting the signing. Anything from VHS is going to look tragic by todays standard.

Bob.

To dxdy:
-------

Many thanks for the information that I can simply drag the left edge of the event on the timeline righward and then drag the whole event leftward. It's a big Duh! but it would not have occurred to me without your help.

As to the VOB clobbering the cropping when it is loaded to a 'little' Vegas file, that doesn't happen in my case. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that neither the 'little' Vegas files nor the regions in the 'big' one involved splits, although they may do so in the future, following musicdvd's suggestion.


As to Pasting Event Attributes, if my understanding is correct, it won't be necessary for the several text events in each the 'little' Vegas file since they're on their own track. They're the biggest issue. Re-doing the cropping would not be so bad since (unlike the text events), it's easier and doesn't have to be all that accurate.

To musicdvd:
-----------

Okay, ya got me. I stand corrected (or sit, hanging my head in shame?). Still, given that the VOB file is of so much better quality than the AVI, and that we appear to have ways to use it successfully, isn't it a better choice?


To videoITguy:
-------------

There is emphatically no pirating involved. What on earth causes you to draw that conclusion? I bought the DVD directly from its publisher.The only possible pirating issue is whether the use I will put it to is legal, and in that regard, I had prior written permission from its publisher to use a limited number of video clips from this conversation in a previous published article of mine. He has informed me that this permission does not extend to the larger number I plan to use in the book. For that, whatever royalties he may want are a matter between him and the publisher.

If, on the other hand, you think all those 'little' Vegas files must be pirated, I can't imagine why you would believe that. Who would I have stolen them from? Do you think they're out on the internet somewhere? Who but me would have constructed Vegas files so specific to a particular use as these are?

As to the quality of the DVD vs. the VHS, I have already stated that the problem may well be my digitization process, but that's ancient history now. The DVD (i.e. its VOB file) is of obviously superior quality, not just in Vegas but in the actual MP4's and MOV's I have built from it as a test of various possible workflows.

To Chienworks and musicdvd (re the 320x240 Question):
---------------------------------------------------
No, the existing AVIs are 720x 480. The only way 320x240 got into the picture was at render time. This was per advice from another forum participant a while back that I choose that as a way to convert widescreen DVD format to 4x3 (in a different project). In my ignorance, I assumed I had to do that here, too. Thanks to participants in this thread or earlier related threads on this topic, I now know better.

To farss:
--------
It sounds like the Peachrock product might be a good solution, but according to their website it's only for Vegas 8, 9, and 10. My current Vegas Pro, and a large number of the .veg files built with it, are version 11 (or old ones with slight tweaks in version 11, thus converting them). I have left a message on the Peachrock website to see if there's a way around that. The Sony YUV codec 4:2:2 sounds like it's for widescreen? True? All these videos are 4x3.

Thanks for the clarification that although AVI *can* be of better quality, it may not be depending on what you feed into it. In this case (back in 2003), I simply played the VHS tape and piped it into Vegas via the ADVC-100 by Canopus, Inc.

Oh, and as to re-shooting the signing, I have in fact already recorded another ASL conversation on my own as a backup in case this falls through. But there are years of work put into deciphering all the signs on the one I'm using now - work that requires consultation with a fluent signer, which I am not. So the backup is probably not a practical idea at this point.


*** BOTTOM LINE SO FAR ***
--------------------------

1. The VOB seems definitely the best source.

2. I've concluded it's wisest to go with MOV instead of MP4 since, in my testing on an underpowered PC (which I must allow for), the MP4's look awful. Tested on better PCs, and on my Mac G5, the resolution of the MP4's and MOV's seems so close that I can't see either one as better than the other. And the file sizes are about the same.

3. The solution of dragging the left edge of the big VOB event rightward on the timeline, then dragging the whole thing leftward will solve my math conversion problem.

4. However, if a lossless (or very nearly lossless) solution is available, that would be far easier. If Lagarith or one of the other solutions produces a result that seems as good as the VOB itself, then that's the solution I will most likely adopt.

NOTE: For the next several days I have to prepare abstracts to meet the deadline for presentations I hope to give at a sign language conference next year. I'll report back after that. Meanwhile, thanks again for all your help up to now!

As far as #4 goes, try working with just the VOB file on the timeline. Chances are that will be completely fine for you and you won't need to create an intermediate. The *only* thing that an intermediate might do for you is make preview response a little faster, so if working with the VOB file is sufficiently fast for you now, you won't gain anything by converting it.