Quite frankly, I find dockable windows and toolbars more trouble than they are worth.

For years I have been providing unofficial tech support to many computer users who could be considered newbies (even though some have been using computers for years. And no, not all of them are "old" people). Many of these users are freaked out when they accidently drag a window or toolbar out of its default position. They come to me and say "I think I broke something, the screen's all messed up." This is a common complaint that quite frankly wastes a lot of time.

Since Video Factory is geared to newbies. I'm sure Sonic Foundry recieved many frantic tech support calls about this.

Besides, a well laid out interface does not need to be customized.

Finally, the vast majority of users do not have or even want a dual display system. Most people would choose a bigger display over two smaller displays.

I think what you are bemoaning is the lost ability of viewing the preview, at full resolution, on a separate display. The new UI design makes it pretty much impossible to do this even on a single monitor. Vegas Video has the capability to view video on an "External Monitor." Perhaps, Video Factory should have the same capability (and perhaps it alreay does - in the Video Hardware folder there is a file called extmondrv.dll). At the very least, there should be a full resolution preview mode.

I think users would appreciate this more than dockable windows. Plus Sonic Foundry would be happier not answering a wave of "my screen's messed up" tech support calls.

Of course I could be wrong :)

The content of this message was deleted by the owner.

Twice now you've made a comment that Video Factory is "dumbining down" to newbies. Pal, I'm a lot of things, but a newbie I'm not, having used PC's going back to the late seventies and mainframes many years before that. Frankly, I'm insulted by your ill considered generalizations about Video Factory users. I think it is you that comes off as dumb for letting your emotions get the better of you in this forum over such a minor issue.

In my time I've seen lots of so-so software, plenty of crap, and every once in awhile something so superior that it blows the competition away. In my never humble opinion, Video Factory comes close to that last classification.

Maybe it would help to understand your hostility towards such a minor change if you explained WHY you think you need the preview window at such a large size. Do you have such poor eyesight you can't see clearly at the default size or is it you're still angry and are not yet thinking clearly?

Chris,

---You sound like you are a tech, and not an artist. Could you imagine the outrage if Adobe Photoshop suddenly quit the ability to re-dock windows?

Actually, I consider myself a programmer (at least that's what it says on my diploma even though I haven't found the job to match it yet). However, I have been editing video on computers for several years as a hobby.

---- You don’t say. Gee, let me guess who you are Tech for…….

And no, I don't work for Sonic Foundry.

----You should educate your users to benefits and features of “LEARNING”, not simply call it a “waste” of your time. I am also in a profession of answering technical concerns and choose to educate my users and offer solutions, rather than just say their concerns are not worth my time.

I do try to teach - that's why it takes so much time! If I were like the tech in Saturday Night Live (Nick Burns, Computer Guy. They guy who always says "Move"), it would take only a few seconds to fix the problem.

The truth of the matter is using computers is hard. There are a lot of boneheaded things you have to learn like:

Let's start with something very elementary: You can use the power button to turn a computer on but not to turn it off (instead use a menu).

(Windows 98) You select Start to shutdown the computer.
(Mac) You select Special to shut down the computer. Is shutting down your computer so special?

There's nothing as simple as pushing a button to turn off something. The menu thing was done as a kludge years ago. With the advent of soft power switches in the ATX spec, the menu shutdown should go the way of the dodo.

You get numb to the dumb stuff after awhile.

That's the point of my arguement, by removing docking Sonic Foundry made VF EASIER TO USE by the average person.

-------Sonic Foundry could answer ALL of those “My Screen’s Messed Up” phone calls by simply replying to them by saying RTFM!

Good advice that no one ever follows. Why do you think Sonic Foundry added a very nice online tutorial.

-------Please post details of how to do this!

Ah, exploring the mystery of "extmondrv.dll." Looking in the details of the dll, it's full name is "Sonic Foundry External Monitor Drivers." It sounds like the ticket to solve all your problems. Unfortunately, I don't know how it works. You'll need a real Sonic Foundry tech for that ;)

I think everyone is getting tired of this you said, I said. The point is your OPINION isn't fact. Making something easier to use for the masses isn't dumbing down, its making the application better. That's my opinion, I'm not foolish enough to attempt to elevate my opinion to fact like you tried.

It seems you are frustated because your rants in this forum aren't getting any more positive response that your email rants to Sonic did. Enough said on this topic, from me anyway. Lets agree to disagree. :-)

My sympathies go out to you , sir. I must educate as well in Theatre Sound Design and now what I know from reading your message here I have decided to never upgrade(?) to SF VF 2.0 as not only does it have the attendant new problems you have outlined very well, it also is no longer possible to run VF on Win98, one must use Win98SE. This is a sad and excuseless trend that SF has been sneaking in to every product that uses any type of Video Recording. There excuse given to me in tech support eamil was essentially that Win95 and Win98 are obsolete OS's and will no longer be supported by SF - even though, as an educator you know, that SF's educational accounts must number in the 10,000 range minimum in schools where Win95 and Win98 (nonSE) are predominantly THE OPERATING SYSTEM , not to mention the greater amount of MACs being used.

I use a program called SFX 5.4 that is used exclusively in Theatre Sound Effect application by me (its 1st and foremost intent) - the very same software used by Chicago Blue Man Group soundperson - They started support on Win95 and will NEVER give up on supporting it. There newest versions work on WinNT 3.5 WinNT4, WinME, Win2K, Win XP (and still work on Win95, a,b,c , Win98, Win98SE, even Win98Lite - remember that slop?) Why do they continue their commitment? Because they cater to the PORFESSIONAL.

Clearly, Sonic Foundry is moving toawrd the Home Recordist and could care less about Education or Educators "opinions".

And before anyone takes the Devil's Advocate approach, lets just say the argument that "Professionals would be consistently upgrade to the highest proffesional level by upgrading softwarte and OS's when they become available" is crap! Any PROFESSIONAL knows to upgrade just because it is the newest thing is folly, since what happens when ever something new comes otu? Bugs, and more bugs. You know it, I know it, we all know it .
FACT: Bugs happen MUCH LESS in program upgrades than they do OS upgrades. So to not only upgrade a software that must also be used in a different OS or upgradewd OS is - rediculous. I know of no other company that takes this kind of lazy approach to programming , except of course ROXIO - they are an industry JOKE. NERO's newest version BLOWS Roxio's SKIRTS UP over their heads!
Of course I would much rather hold CDArchitect high as the leader but I just cant count on that next upgrade to be compatible with Win98!

OPINION: Roxio? What is that , some one's daghter's name or a kitty-cat's name?

FACT/OPINION: SF must learn the difference.

Now sit back and enjoy the convoluted logic of SF support!

You should be fired.

Of course you are wrong.
"Finally, the vast majority of users do not have or even want a dual display system. Most people would choose a bigger display over two smaller displays."

Where do you get this crap? Off the back of a cereal box?

"The SFVF2 E-Mail mislead VF1 users into thinking there was something better--an UPgrade. That was a lie."

You aren't endearing yourself with comments like that. That's like saying you bought a new BMW and because you didn't like the key ring you hate the car and won't drive it. :-)

"They took more than they gave."
Not with that comment either.

Hey, don't think I'm just somebody waving the Sonic Foundry flag, read some of my earlier comments. Difference between you and me is I make (I hope) constructive criticism, while you are going on and one over one feature that seems to have got your shorts all in a bunch.

There are many things in the upgrade worth the price. Just a few of my favorites; more transitions, (love the page curl) presets for commonly used filters, (usually tweak it myself, but nice feature for newbies) the ability to burn a CD directly from Video Factory (haven't tried it yet, sounds KEWL!), the ability to rip sound tracks from CD's, (kewl again! did try it,) and you are still going on and on just because window docking is gone. Yes, changing some things help newbies. I think by your comments like the one following, you fancy yourself some video editing expert. "Any users who don't understand this can go on happily in the bliss of ignorance." Again I find such off the wall remarks groudless and offensive. I'll go out on a limb and say I'm guessing there are FAR more knowledgable people using Video Factory than you (hint) And I haven't seen anyone else throw a temper tantrum that's going on its second day simply because your pet feature is gone. Geez, its gone. Live with it or use something else. "Everyone here thinks I'm a madman for getting pissed about SF removing the ability to dock and un dock windows in the gui" You are WAY over reacting. That's all. Really.

Get a life! VideoFactory is an entry level editor. If you want professional features, get your checkbook out and buy the program that has all the features that you want. You'll be much happier in the long run. I am!

You forgot about that new thingie that allows a project that will render into more than 4 G to be automatically broken up so the user need not manually render 4 G sections with manually inserted fade-to-blacks. And that other thingie that allows print-to-tape of the result to automatically go through all the files in order, so you don't need to do them one by one. Granted, there are bugs in that second part (with audio), but the fact that effort was put in to make that feature available is a huge time and energy saver to anyone who wants to print back to tape. THAT, actually, was why I upgraded. (Funny thing, too, the new fixed layout was the same layout I'd come to use on my own by moving the windows myself in VF 1.0. Hmmmmm...)

I for one feel that chriselkins has a very valid point. Dockable windows
is a feature and not a bug, and as such, one should expect a useful
feature to be retained in a upgrade (perhaps fixed if there are problems)
rather than dropped. As another artist (as well as a tech and a
programmer) i can see the ability to place the preview in a separate
monitor to be enormously, well, not necessarily helpful, but certainly
nice and desirable. While i'm working on a project, i like to see it the
way the audience will see it. It may seem like a small deal if you're not
used to it, but if you've ever done production work on a system with a
separate preview monitor, you'll understand the benefit.

Perhaps it would have been much better for SF to have kept the
dockable windows and included an option under preferences to allow
the user to enable or disable them, and even included an option to
"lock" the dockable windows in the user's current configuration. Now
that would answer everyone's problems and be a tremendous selling
point. Hint for version 2.1? ;-)

Some other upgrade "choices" that i would prefer to have as options
include the Create Movie wizard (i hate wizards, i ALWAYS click the
Advanced button) and the "play from beginning" button. Does anyone
have any idea why that disappeared from the transport group?

However, these gripes aside, version 2 is an incredible improvement
in my opinion. And for the upgrade price, it's a steal.

Well I'm a long time programmer and wannabe artist too and I don't see the reason for a few people becoming almost paranoid over the minor change from dockable to undockable windows. Nobody said it was a bug, it was a feature change. Those things happen all the time. I doubt such changes are made on a whim, rather I suspect Sonic got plenty of feedback from people saying get rid of those damn #%$^#% docking windows.

While SonicFoundry hasn't said, I'll wager the dockable windows were dropped because a LOT of people either didn't like, were annoyed with,(include me)or had trouble with the way the docking windows either overlapped or hid one another and you constantly had to fiddle with them in order to have a preview and also see what filter options were available without undocking other windows and thus hiding the timeline. I think Sonic made a wise decision in fixing this annoyance. That's my two cents. :-)

Nobody said it wasn't a benefit, however few people using Video Factory will have a second monitor or the necessary graphic card. REMEMBER the target audiance. Video Factory is for rapidly growing home enthusiast market and video beginner. That's also why Sonic has Vegas Video if you want "advanced" features like dual monitor support. :-)

Nobody is questioning the benefit, rather I question why some seem so unduly upset over the drop of one feature and even more so for a specifc implementation of a subset of that feature... namely being able to have a preview either in a seperate monitor or have a blownup preview window which only hides the rest of the screen. My eyesight isn't the greatest and I have no trouble with the default size of the preview window. If you must "see it" full size, you can always make a quick render and play that in any player.

Just because it has generated a lot of response, I would like to hear some "official" reasons as to why the dockable windows were dropped. :-)

Thanks for all the input, all. Some of you agree, some don't. That's what forum's are for.

Nevertheless, one of SF's customer service managers contacted me personally, offering a very kind and generous solution for me regarding my concerns.

I am very sad to see the old Video Factory expire, as it was a "poor video artists" dream come true, so far as non-linear video editing is concerned! See below.

Granted-The film effects of the new VF2 are OUTSTANDING! I would have paid the 30$ just for that plug in!

I was just a bit pissed that I paid for an upgrade, and then found out the one thing I loved so much was gone, (dockable windows...the ability to use two displays) as well as so many other fine tuning options that I never even mentioned here.


I guess I should also say that I was in such desperate NEED of such a program when I found it and downloaded a trial copy.

I was an Art major at University of Texas, Arlington trying to use this hideous NT contraption they had using "AVID Express". After two 8-16 hour sessions with that system resulting in nothing, I felt somewhat pressured, having only 48 hours until my "Metals" project was due.

I decided to fork up the 30 or 40 bucks, to use Video Factory. I downloaded it that day.

The next day at UTA, I told my producer "in order for us to finish this project on time, you have to meet me at my work [where the editing computer was] and dump the vid from the DV cam into my computer via an SVHS Capture!"

He showed up at 5am. We captured the video. I edited it, re-arranged the music, and had it presentable on time at class that night!


There is NO WAY I could have done this without SonicFoundry VideoFactory!

Check out the video here: http://www.chriselkins.com/video.htm


So----What's my point?


My point is that having met VF with such student driven need, finding a pro ap for a tiny fraction of the cost expected just blew me away!

Wait--that wuddnt my point.

My point is that maybe I, as a student going pro, before gray hair sets in, I expected more, whereas, SF being a company enabling all, realized that maybe they should tune down the techscrudy for a new generation of computer sort-of-bees (not to be confused with Eric, the "Half-a-Bee").

If any of you still want to gripe at me, go here:

www.chriselkins.com

PS,
Later The President of UTA had a luncheon to thank the producers and directors of this project.

Thay say it's a feather--in my hat.


Yup.


I don't wear hats.

What did Sonic Foundry do as a solution to your dockable windows dilemma?

Thanks for all the input, all. Some of you agree, some don't. That's what forum's are for.

Nevertheless, one of SF's customer service managers contacted me personally, offering a very kind and generous solution for me regarding my concerns.

I am very sad to see the old Video Factory expire, as it was a "poor video artists" dream come true, so far as non-linear video editing is concerned! See below.

Granted-The film effects of the new VF2 are OUTSTANDING! I would have paid the 30$ just for that plug in!

I was just a bit pissed that I paid for an upgrade, and then found out the one thing I loved so much was gone, (dockable windows...the ability to use two displays) as well as so many other fine tuning options that I never even mentioned here.


I guess I should also say that I was in such desperate NEED of such a program when I found it and downloaded a trial copy.

I was an Art major at University of Texas, Arlington trying to use this hideous NT contraption they had using "AVID Express". After two 8-16 hour sessions with that system resulting in nothing, I felt somewhat pressured, having only 48 hours until my "Metals" project was due.

I decided to fork up the 30 or 40 bucks, to use Video Factory. I downloaded it that day.

The next day at UTA, I told my producer "in order for us to finish this project on time, you have to meet me at my work [where the editing computer was] and dump the vid from the DV cam into my computer via an SVHS Capture!"

He showed up at 5am. We captured the video. I edited it, re-arranged the music, and had it presentable on time at class that night!


There is NO WAY I could have done this without SonicFoundry VideoFactory!

Check out the video here: http://www.chriselkins.com/video.htm


So----What's my point?


My point is that having met VF with such student driven need, finding a pro ap for a tiny fraction of the cost expected just blew me away!

Wait--that wuddnt my point.

My point is that maybe I, as a student going pro I expected more, whereas SF being a company enabling all realized that maybe they should tune down the hypertech for a new generation of computer users who were just above what I shall call consumer. Prosumer?

If any of you still want to gripe at me, go here:

www.chriselkins.com

PS,
Later The President of UTA had a luncheon to thank the producers and directors of this project.

Thay say it's a feather--in my hat.


Yup.


I don't wear hats.

>Granted-The film effects of the new VF2 are >OUTSTANDING! I would have paid the 30$ just for that >plug in!

>I was just a bit pissed that I paid for an upgrade, >and then found out the one thing I loved so much was >gone, (dockable windows...the ability to use two >displays) as well as so many other fine tuning >options that I never even mentioned here.

Chris, I have an idea for you. Being as Vegas Video users such as myself are able to use the new transitions and FX from VF II, I would think you could do the same with VF I.
If you copied the shared files folder to another place on your HD and renamed it, seems you could uninstal VF II, reload VF I and then switch out the shared files folder. You would lose the newer text and credit roll features AFAIK, because they don't work with Vegas for me.
Then again, Vegas is only $150.00 now.

Craig H.