Unfortunately, nothing anyone can do. Plenty of people were pissed back at the production studio upgrade prices etc... and Adobe didnt change their policy then I seriously doubt they will now.

Add to it, at least Adobe is providing enough notice now so that those that may be waivering on the fence and only need Ultra have the chance to buy it separately. Should Adobe be expected to offer it forever as a separate product? I am willing to bet that for CS4, Ultra is integrated into After Effects to complement simple quick keying along side Keylight. It probably would have happened with CS3 except of the late acquisition.

Regarding the upgrade path from Ultra, is it really fair to expect Adobe to provide an upgrade path with the amount of savings for a product that just acquired. By that theory alone, one could buy Ultra2 at academic superstore for $159 and get a cheaper upgrade.

I should know better than to get involved but I have to. I see both sides ot this issue but Patrick was exaclty correct in bringing up DVDA. It is the same thing because one product can now only be purchased in a bundle. SoFo/Sony has done this in the past - what about all the people who put out money to buy the seperate AC3 encoder? Or how about the people who purchased Acoustic Mirror? Stream Anywhere? You can't really get these items alone anymore but they come as part of another product.

The other day I was a bit stunned to hear, and than read, that Premiere Pro CS3 now INCLUDES Encore as well as DvRack HD...er, I mean "On Location". So how about the people who purchased DvRack, Encore and Premiere all seperate? Point is it happens all the time. It is cheaper to buy PPro 2 for $800 and some change and get the FREE upgrade which incudes a lot more. So Adobe seems to NOT be greedy in that case.

But yes - Ultra is expensive and people laid out a lot of money for it so it is kind of a let down to find out it may be gone. But, again, it happens all the time. Company I worked with put out a lot of money on a D/Vision systembut that did not mean we got a free Discreet Edit suite when they picked the product up. About 7 years ago I worked for a studio that rolled out big bucks for a Trinity system. We didn't get any free rollover or support when that became GlobeCaster. (But at least they have a "legacy" page that offers the old software...but really this is a perfect example. Check out the wording on th epage: Trinity is no longer supported by GlobalStreams. Customers interested in upgrading to the latest features, hardware and software of the GlobeCaster product line should contact GlobalStreams directly. These are the only patches available for the Trinity product. Development and support of this product has been halted and it is currently discontinued. GlobalStreams makes no warranty regarding the use of these patches and will not provide any support regarding them.)

So yeah Jay and Ken - it sucks about Ultra but it is not just Adobe being greedy. It is sadly the way things work most of the time.

There is Ultimatte AdvantEdge which is around $1,200.00 US. No VR sets included. But Virtual Set Works offers a lot.

Patrick was exaclty correct in bringing up DVDA. It is the same thing because one product can now only be purchased in a bundle.

No, it isn't the same thing! DVDA never has been a stand-alone product. Ultra was, from it's inception, a stand-alone application.

And from what I've seen on Adobe's site, it isn't "integrated" into the software, it's the Serious Magic app "throw in" for kicks, just so they can control the competition. Horse feathers, they may as well be "bundling" Baby-Ruths, at that rate.

Maybe I was not clear so let me rephrase.

There was SoFo and they had Vegas / Vegas Pro / Vegas Video.
Along the way they had an extra cost for a plugin called Acoustic Mirror as well as Mpeg plug-ins.

Vegas and Vegas Video sort of rolled into one product and DVDA came along. There was a seperate AC3 program that was out.

Along the way Acoustic Mirror was included with, and did not cost extra. Same with the AC3 encoding and mpeg encoding. The AC3 endcoding was a seperate product that is not now as that was integrated. And, of course, you did not HAVE to buy DVDA, you could just get Vegas Video but now you HAVE to get both. In doing so you also get the AC3 encoding and the mpeg encoding.

So Thusly - right this second I would have to go out out and get Premiere Pro alone. Then if I wanted DVRack I could go out and buy either an SD or HD version of it. Now say I wanted to author a DVD I could get Encore. However come July all I would havbe to do is buy PPro and get not only the NLE but also two other items. Now the comaprison fo rme come sinto play because you used to be able to get just Vegas, in the Adobe world you used to be able to get just premiere. Come July you can not just get Encore - you HAVE to also get Premiere *and* DvRack. What you will NOT be able to do is get JUST Encore or JUST DvRack.

So, like Ultra, it will now be part of a "bigger" package. All you have to do is look at this from the other side of the mirror. So -

PAST - Vegas OR Vegas + DVD (Ealry on AC3 endcoing, Mpeg encoding extra)
CURRENT - Vegas + DVD only (Includes AC3 encoing, included Mpeg encoding)

PAST - PPro OR Encore OR DvRack (or all three)
AS OF JULY - PPro CS3 ONLY

And I guess as a side - if you wanted to output to Flash you needed that app as well - now that option is included with Premiere and Encore. And really that goes back to the start of this - Adobe seems to be making a huge push with the integration of all the products. Serious Magic was, more or less, just purchased by Adobe so I would not have expected a huge integration yet with the CS3 stuff.

But back to Ultra - so what if it is NOW part of a package. Much of what I mentioned is also now part of a package or bought out by another company. Before "NOW" there was a "THEN" and i clealry remember the "first" release of "Sony Vegas" as opposed to "Sonic Foundry Vegas Video" and how many people complained that it was the same product but had the Sony branding on it. <Tounge in cheek>Hey I still have Vegas Video 4 but Sony does not offer support on it anymore - why can't they offer support!!! Oh - Sony and SoFo are just greedy and they want people the shell out all this money for Vegas 7 +DVD when all they really need to to offer support and minor upgrades for Sonic Foundry's Vegas Video. </Tounge out of cheek?

fictional account:
Greedy hmmm, one company buys and spends money, one company sells buys a Porsche and a beachhouse and gets a job with the money company,,, Who is loyal to customers,,,, who is greedy ,,

At a minimum, I'd be happy if there was some way to ensure continued activation support for the program I bought, and spent nearly $2,000 for, after this year.

For when I upgrade pcs etc, the current activation will likely want to reactivate since new motherboard/hard drive configurations etc.. so if I can get a "key" that will always let me use what I paid nearly $2,000 for (investing in my future, believing it would always be available for me), without having to shell out another $1700-$2500 (four thousand fricking dollars total, to maintain Ultra capability), then I'd be ok.

I wish companies like adobe would have the business ethics to take care of their customers that they "inherit" when they acquire another company, but I have not seen this, which is poor business practice.

And I agree, the Ultra and other acquisitions, like Cool Edit Pro/CE2k, was likely just a competitive acquisition, as they'll likely fold the technology into other programs and discontinue Ultra as a standalone app, effectively killing it in the next year or two to come.

What a loss.

Compare and contrast all of this bs with the great business of digitaljuice, who has taken care of their customers and inspired high loyalty from many of us, like SM used to do. And if and when DJ gets acquired by some big corporate royalty free house, it'll likely suffer the same fate.

It saddens me to see the death of these inspired, well-done startups that grow and become successful, then get acquired and lose everything re the relationship with customers and loyalty and responsiveness that made them what they were.

Like software jewels turning to dust once they adorn the crown of the uncaring corporate mega-companies that crush the heart from them once they are acquired. The personal relationship, great deals, upgrade paths and great support all disappear (you can talk to someone in India for $40 a pop, though! wee). Kind of like our favorite NLE, what happened. Same story, different players.

poetically dejected,

Ken

When company A buys company B, company A acquires ALL assets and obligations of company B. That' s the law. Company A simply cannot do what it likes with whatever it acquired from Company B, all contracts, rights, liabilities etc remain in place, all that changes is the name of one of the parties.
So depending on the wording of the licences issues by SM to its users Adobe is very much obliged to fullfill the terms of those contracts. To suggest otherwise would open a bottomless can of worms.

Bob.

Agree, Bob - I'm hunting up my initial copy of the EULA/license agreement for Ultra.
It's a hassle, I know I should just "deal with it and pay the extra $2500 and not whine", but my blood boils when I get ripped off and forced to buy something I don't need or want, just to use what I Thought I'd bought in the first place etc..

Here's a quick question for the software types: my understanding of activation support is that if you get a new system and reinstall, it always asks for reactivation, right? eg when I get my new pc later this week, and want to install ultra and vegas etc on it, I'll need to reactivate them all, correct? It's not enough to ghost hard drives, unless I use the same mobo/system configuration, because most activation schemes look at the hardware system config, and even changing a lan card etc might trigger a reactivation request.. let me know if any suggestions, eg how to maintain activation support say in 2009 for a product I buy today, using it on a new system...

there's actually quite a few programs that I use for more than 12 months, eg 3-4 years I'll use, and would like to maintain activation support... ghosting a drive works, but only on the initial mobo/system config, from my understanding.. right?

thx,

Ken

It all varies but from what I've heard the biggest 'vote' comes from the network cards unique ID. So using a descrete network card that you move between systems might just do the trick.

Bob.

So if Ultra 2 is now effectively a DEAD PRODUCT due to Adobe stupidity what are the alternative products? It's odd that Adobe doesn't sell it seperately like most of their other bundled tools, it jsut loses them money which is stupid.

Let me ask a fair question.... would it still be greedy if it were Sony who took my advice last year or so when I recommended for them to partner with SM or buy them so that they could integrate DVRack into their program? Only to have Sony take the code and absorb it into Vegas? By the same sense, they would be guilty of what Adobe is doing. The difference? We Vegas users would be the benefactors not Premiere users.

Adobe bought SM for the technology not for the chance to sell the product. Like someone said above, SM probably exhausted the revenue stream as it sold the product to all that it could. What else could they do other than try to come up with new features which would have been hard pressed to do? Adobe wants the technology and code to increase productivity for its user base. and not have to force their customer to have to go out and drop $799 on DVRack 2 (when Adobe acquired it they lowered the price to $499, definitely not greed, same goes for Ultra2). So SM sold the company and products.

Adobe customer or not, I cant find fault with a company who buys technology to increase user work flow. Adobe cares about giving its customers the tools to work with. Should they be expected to reinvent the wheel just so customers of another company gave a bunch of money to the previous company? You paid SM for the product and support, not Adobe.

If you are pissed, be pissed at Sony for not pursuing SM last year. They could doing exactly what Adobe is doing or will do and Vegas users could have benefited. They chose not to so now Adobe customers win. Its just business.

IMO it's the fact that Ken and others like myself, are concerned with continuing to use a product we have already purchased in the future.
If Adobe wants to charge 2x as much for the same product,or only sell it with a bundle..disappointing yes but not as dissapointing as having a product that for what ever reason you need to reactivate (that is, use the SAME product,no upgrades etc.) you cant unless you fork over a substantial amount more money.

Patrick , this is what scares me, as Farss and Ken have mentioned SM''s products ie Ultra,HDV rack do key off of hardware components, so not only if you move your software to a new computer , but if the component that it has chosen for its key fails and you replace it , you have to reactivate. And if its after the Adobe deadline and we dont fork over the $$ for the upgrade, it looks like our tool is SOL.


trust me I know..my laptop that I have HDV rack installed on was a pain to activate when I first installed the program . I had to manually do it over the phone. This was an issue SM had quite a bit with activation, per the tech guy I talked with on the phone.

This is not the same as DVDA comparison if even it that comparision were valid, you can still use, activate ,reactivate,reinstall ANY Sony product be it DVDA 01,2 3, Vegas 3,4,5 etc... whether its sold in a bundle or not.

%^#*^&( &*(^$#&*&!.

Sorry. That's the best I can do for now.

Of course Adobe can do as they wish with the IP that they paid good money for, just as Sony could with the IP they bought as part of the SoFo deal. But part of that deal was a very substantial amount of debt as well as obligations to exisitng customers.

They can no more tell the creditors "Oh sorry the company that owed you that money doesn't exist anymore" than they could tell the customers of SoFo to go get lost.

This was the sort of schemes tried down here to avoid all manner of corporate obligations, primarily taxation but the same principle applies, you buy a company, you get the good and the bad. That's what due diligence is about, that's why the directors of the company that was sold need to be very careful as well, the purchasing company has righst to redress if anything wasn't disclosed.

So long as Adobe continue to meet the obligations of the SM EULA then they're in the clear, hopefully they will. Quite apart from the risk of litigation they'd certainly be encouraging piracy which would hurt the value of their exSM asset, dumb move if they let this happen.

AQdobe has not said they wont support the program. All they have said is that they will not support orducts bought from SM AFTER January 7, 2007. So if you go to some retail store or academic place and purchase it, they dont have to support you. I talked to a rep tonight who said that its nowhere the animal that those on the forum are making it out to be.

A point of clarification please. Dont most if not all EULA state that we have purchased the license to use the software for an indefinite period of time and that at any time, the EULA can change without written notification or be revoked with or without warning? So my understanding (I may be wrong) is that if Adobe chose to, they could say update your software to our version or youre on your own and there no legal ground to stand on.

Everybody flipped out when Sony took over SF products. Everyone panicked and asked the same questions that are being asked now. Everything has turned out alright.

Be anbgry but not with Adobe. Be angry that companies like Adobe, MSFT, Sony, Avid, etc.... all chose to use DRM software that can potentially lock you out of your software one day.

Right, epirb... the arcane activation process makes it useless in years to come, unless we've also double-paid up to Adobe, effectively double-charging us for our tools that we already paid nearly 2 thousand dollars for.

And has anyone tried to actually CALL adobe customer (dis)service on the phone? Waiting for hours to talk to Raheed in India, reading off a script, then giving you the runaround to talk to another clueless tech, is NOT what I signed on for when I bought into this product line.

I will say that at least in comparison, Sony's customer service has been good on the 2 times I had to call, actually very good.

Treating customers right is common sense. Companies lose huge sales if people read about the nightmares from other customers via reviews (on amazon, here, priceline, other video forums, wherever). So it makes good business sense to do well by those who pay you money.

These ill-fated sellouts from small, talented companies into huge uncaring monopolistic software giants is bad for us individual small-biz/entrepreneurial types.

At least it opens up the door for competition from talented software people who know how to take care of their customers.

Now is a PERFECT time for a smart software developer to create a competitive standalone vector-keying software program. You'd make a bundle. (hint).


Ken

Has anyone heard of any new developments with regard to activation support for what used to be Ultra 2? My new quad core machine is hungry...I'd like to feed it a helping of 'chromakey'.

Thanks