OT: And the winner is... HD DVD!

Coursedesign wrote on 8/5/2009, 1:43 PM
From ZDNet:

Just when Blu-ray thought it had clear sailing, a tempest has risen in the East: China Blue Hi-definition Disk (CBHD). Toshiba has licensed its HD DVD to them and it will be the unit world leader in HD optical technology in just 12 months.

Could be interesting.

Maybe we will finally get a High Definition recordable disk format for videographers like with the DVD-R's everyone was happy with, this time an HD-capable format without the massive fees at every step.

BD can be reserved for Hollywood, and the rest of us can use full raster 1920x1080 CBHD with $0.37 media and $19.99 players...


Jay Gladwell wrote on 8/5/2009, 2:00 PM

Bjorn, I surely hope you're correct!

"... Blu-ray’s high cost has slowed its acceptance to a crawl, so Chinese CBHD players will rapidly climb down the cost curve to prices lower than DVD-only players since they aren’t paying DVD royalties either."

Yeah, you'd think Sony would have learned. So this Chinese HD could be to Blu-ray what VHS was to beta.

A. Grandt wrote on 8/5/2009, 2:11 PM
Well, if you remove the royalties for using the technology, as it would seem Toshiba have done here, you are bound to be able to sell the units and produce the discs a lot cheaper.

I would not mind a cheap high-def/high capacity optical media, and it could become a thorn for Blu-ray, however I doubt the film studios will accept it as a consumer format without a fight, they are sadly too well entrenched on their need (desire) for region coding and already broken DRM.
earthrisers wrote on 8/5/2009, 2:14 PM
If it happens, it sure looks like a potential win for videofolks the likes of me, who produce DVDs for limited audiences such as Moms and Dads of kids in graduation ceremonies, talent shows, etc.
I'd love to be able to deliver in an HD format, rather than just 16x9 in nonHD, as I do now.

Fine with me if Hollywood studios don't go this way; BluRay can be their realm.
nolonemo wrote on 8/5/2009, 2:41 PM
But for this to help out videofolks, there would have to be a significant market penetration of the CBHD players. And the only way that would happen is if studio entertainment is available on CBHD in the US. And I'm not sure the studios are going to let that happen.
MozartMan wrote on 8/5/2009, 2:44 PM
The only country were this 'Chinese-gov't' sanctioned standard will have any impact is China.
Coursedesign wrote on 8/5/2009, 3:07 PM
So you think Americans don't appreciate a good deal?

Aren't already more than 90% of products in our toy stores and electronics stores made in China?

Hollywood studios of course won't like the appearance of BD competition, but exactly how would they stop it?
farss wrote on 8/5/2009, 3:26 PM
I do recall saying watch out for what China does in the midst of the discussion about the HD war. If India adopts the same standard that's 60% of the world market. The studios will sell out for whatever they can get.

blink3times wrote on 8/5/2009, 3:35 PM
The end result really sort of makes no difference to me. Either way as long as we have Hi Def on a disk.

I don't think however that CBHD will make anymore of a dent in North America than BD has unless there is a SERIOUS drop on the price of the movies. Cheaper machines is one thing but BD has proven that if feeding those machines isn't cheap then wheel spinning will be the result. People in general are quite happy with dvd.... and even that market is shrinking.

I don't know.... you can spend a week trying to guess and figure as to why Hi def disks aren't burning up the market... but the fact is they aren't and I don't think another choice in disk/machine/format type will improve things much more than they are now.
JJKizak wrote on 8/5/2009, 4:22 PM
Well lets see, I have my Blue ray machine and two burners, HD-DVD machine, Avelink machine, Old DVD machine, and now I will have to get the CBHD machine and burner. It just never stops. Now I can start to whine to Sony---Why can't I burn CBHD?

craftech wrote on 8/5/2009, 5:30 PM
who will turn down HD content at DVD prices

As you suggested at the end of your post - The DVD movie producers of which Sony is one of them.

None of this has ever been about the consumer. It's always about eliminating competition and trying to capitalize upon the resulting monopoly. Some here were laughing when I predicted that SD DVD would be the winner of the format war. Guess what?

I wouldn't mind switching to HD production of event videos instead of producing SD DVDs with my new Sony HD cam.

GlennChan wrote on 8/5/2009, 6:22 PM
The VCD is a format that took off in Asia but never really took off here. Though our DVD players can handle them.
Coursedesign wrote on 8/5/2009, 7:21 PM
VCDs allowed distribution on $0.20 disks instead of $1.00 disks (at the time), playable on PC drives people already had, instead of having to buy a $50.00 drive (at the time). That made a big difference to poor people, but not so much difference to people in the first world.

BD has been a non-starter for videographers so far. Royal PITB, very expensive to get into, and on top of that the real functionality is only available on a very small percentage of BD players in homes today.

More likely the future is in Ruko etc. type "Netflix players" that can play streaming media as well as media stored on your hard disk.

For the latter it would however be important to have a backup.

Nobody wants to take disks out of a package to listen to music or watch a movie any more. That's just something that has been a necessary inconvenience in the past (and for many, in the present).

So what to back up your 2 TB hard disk to?

Ummm, that's 40 x $10.00 each = $400.00 worth of double-sided Blu-Ray disks.

Or a bunch of CBHD for $0.10 each. format not popular with consumers yet? Who cares, this is my backup only.

Or you could put your data in the cloud and have it officially extirpated simply because someone claims you are insulting John Bolton or violating the copyright laws of Nigeria (purchased Kindle books got remotely deleted by Amazon recently, this could happen on a wider scale in the cloud).

LivingTheDream wrote on 8/5/2009, 8:57 PM
Coursedesign: "...like with the DVD-R's everyone was happy with..."

"Was happy with"? I'm still happy with -R's. And now that I'm using an HD camera to make SD DVD's and most people have upconverting DVD players connected to their flatscreens my videos are looking better than ever. Oops sorry Sony, please disregard that last comment. What I meant was I'm working a second job in order to save up enough money to go into Blu-Ray production...

DGates wrote on 8/5/2009, 9:55 PM
Bjorn, if a BD-R disc is currently too pricey for your projects, then you're probably in the wrong business.

Recordable Blu-Ray's can be had for far less than $5 a disc. I guess you're company isn't doing that well if you consider that too expensive.

Plus, we have enough cheap ass crap from China as it is. Get it out of you head that cheap is ALWAYS better. It's not.

Go whine about something else.
Rory Cooper wrote on 8/5/2009, 11:10 PM
I talk my clients to go media players, cut out DVD,s altogether

most of my stuff is event content and some broadcast content which is still on delivered on state of the ark-beta
on the event side running media players is the best option, DVD’s are too limited and there are other hassles that can creep in

at present I shoot HD content, NOW what are my options
cut a SD dvd, well what’s the point …….or BUY blue ray burner, BUY blue ray player and BUY blue ray discs and hope my client has a blue ray player

or BUY a media player that plays HD….cheaper and better solution with same quality and less hassles

personally I see Dvd,s remaining for mass delivery but as more people invest in media players this will lessen the demand for Dvd content
even for private family content ,weddings etc

FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 8/5/2009, 11:42 PM
In a few years from now people won't be using DVD, BD or VHS players anymore. Everyone will have media players that can play anything including MKV files. Even now your SD can be upscaled to HD. Iomega and MVIX media players are now able to play MP1, MP4 to DVIX and even VOB files at or upto 720p. You can connect to them via a host of technologies including WiFi and HDMI. You simply plug the media player into a TV, PC, plasma or LCD screen sit back and enjoy.

These media players are cheaper than BD players and are very portable. The only question for me is how do you buy movie content?

Google the latest MVIX MX 800HD and see for yourself.

apit34356 wrote on 8/6/2009, 12:09 AM
That's funny,----------------- what major exclusive China electronic product that has become hot and big $$ market in US or the EU? China and India markets are growing, but the "real" test of $$$ per transaction is still extremely low-------- meaning the profit marginal is extremely low and there is not enough volume yet to support internal manufacturing without governmental support or foreign sales.

What about MS software licensing for HD DVD? Just to piss off Sony will MS fore go licensing, control, and fees........ especially since MS has a long history of fighting with China about privy?

Plus the studios are studying 4K on BD for the last +6 months for "whatever reasons". ;-) 720p never really had a primetime market before 1080p dominated the buzz, 1080p was slow in sales but it was hot topic. 4K screens at the high end may be arriving sooner that projected even with the all the electronic firms having tough times.

HD DVD in China, ;-) ,good. What is interesting is GOOGLE acquiring codecs, probably for the OS and android development ---- this may be interesting and a concern if you are MS or especially Apple.
Grazie wrote on 8/6/2009, 12:16 AM
Craig, spot-on.

I show my work to people from a USB stick or even now from an SD card! But, and again, often they want to be left WITH a DVD - it's what they know. For the price of a USB stick/SD Card/DVD we're kinda all spoilt for choice. We choose the distrib method that fits us. And it has never ever been so rosie. OK this ain't HD but memory access is going leaps and bounds. Also with upscaling and the eventual piping of my work from Planet-Grazie to their "device" in their Office, Car, Mob-Cell, wristwatch or internally on their retina, we are only limited by our creative thinking about all of this.

The distrib landscape is, and has always been shifting. From Edison's Wax Cyls thru to today. We really shouldn't be surprised that it is the rate of change, at which distrib terrain is being shaped, is the only thing that has remained constant. After all, compaines do have to turn a penny, make profit and keep shareholders happy?

CClub wrote on 8/6/2009, 8:42 AM
I agree with Grazie... Craig (and XFX) are EXACTLY right. I've been recording a concert at a private school (very wealthy families) in HD for the past two years. I've offered to supply them Blu-Ray discs. No one wants them. And these are not even close to middle class families.

What do they want? 1) DVD's. 2) a DVD-R with an HD version for them to load onto their home theater systems. 3) iPhone/iPod versions for the kids to carry around on their iPhones and/or media players. So I give them a disc set (4 disc holders from supermediastore.com): one Dual Layer DVD, one data disc DVD-R with a video file of the HD version of the concert, an audio CD, and a data disc with mp4/wmv/mp3 files.

Imagine... wealthy families with home theaters who don't even want Blu-Ray versions. And why would they need them?
JJKizak wrote on 8/6/2009, 9:15 AM
Probably 20% of them can't tell the difference anyway with diminished vision skills.
Coursedesign wrote on 8/6/2009, 9:47 AM
Coursedesign: "...like with the DVD-R's everyone was happy with..."

Of course. And so are a lot of other people as shown by the very low BD sales vs. DVD sales.

Still, it would have real value to be able to show real HD vs. upscaled SD, because it allows the use of wide shots with meaningful detail without having to move the camera just to get close enough to see what's important.

Bjorn, if a BD-R disc is currently too pricey for your projects, then you're probably in the wrong business.

It's not the $5 that's the problem. The problem is that most people have no interest in buying BD players.

I'm generally an early adopter, but I have no plans to get a BD player. I've passed on $99.00 players, as I just don't want another limited-use box.

That's the reason I mentioned my thinking that the future is with Ruko type media players. For $99.00, they can play more than 50,000 Netflix and Amazon streaming HD movies and TV shows, with more coming. I can get distribution on Amazon, and this is beginning to look viable financially (reasonable distribution cost and growing reach).

For content that is bought, it is reasonable to want to have a backup for when (not if) the hard drive croaks. What format should that be? It's clear that the BD camp has no interest in this market, if anything they seem to be doing whatever they can to keep it limited because of piracy worries. They could have made a lot of money, but were betting on having Hollywood send freight trains of cash from selling BD movies to consumers.

Ah, well. Another missed opportunity, and it is quite possible that the train has already left the station. There are new archival disk technologies around the corner with far higher capacities than the 50 GB BD, and since BD hasn't gotten established, it's vulnerable.

Plus, we have enough cheap ass crap from China as it is. Get it out of you head that cheap is ALWAYS better. It's not.

Better turn on the air conditioning... Where did I suggest cheaper is better? Nowhere of course.

What most people are looking for today is value, not the lowest price. You may have a different situation, but I see so many people today thinking before buying, and quality is a factor in their decisions. They want to buy stuff that lasts, to save money in the long run.

I am worried on many levels about how so much of what we use every day is manufactured overseas. If WWIII hits, our involvement will stop when we run out of inventory of imported products, because we don't have much manufacturing left here anymore.

LivingTheDream wrote on 8/6/2009, 11:53 AM
LightAds: "Google the latest MVIX MX 800HD and see for youself."

From MviX's website:

"Unfortunately MvixUSA - Unicorn partner in USA for the last few years has recently announced their new device - the so called "Mvix Ultio (MX-800HD)" This announcement is to clarify to all that device is not a Unicorn product, nor it will be supported by Unicorn now or in the future in anyway. According to initial Unicorn Investigations to the subject matter, the device is an independent unauthorized OEM initiative made by MVIXUSA and originated from other vendor. The use of the Mvix name brand on any product or publication without the advance explicit authorization or permission of Unicorn Korea was reported to the legal department of the company with a clear instructions to take all necessary steps to protect Unicorn rights without delay. Please note: Any dealer or an e-tailer worldwide offering the sale or distribution of any Mvix devices without explicit authorization in advance from Unicorn Korea will be held liable for infringing Unicorn rights and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent allowed by the law. Mvix Korea Official site is www.mvix.net "

FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 8/6/2009, 1:11 PM
You're right... for the moment though. MVIX MX780HD is just one of their models along the the PVR version. This model already plays DIVX HD in 720p mode. The point of this discussion is the in-roads media players will make over the BD and DVD players in the very near future. Discussions in the forums explain in detail the new chip that will be in the MX800 whether MVIX manufacture it or not. MKV file format will be supported along with ALL other existing formats

Uh-oh indeed for the Blue-ray and DVD media formats. MVIX is just 1 of the many multimedia players out there.

This time Google "multimedia players" and see where most are manufactured? Yep China Mainland

Nuff said - Craig
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 9/26/2009, 1:32 PM
I remember posting about the demise of DVD and Blue-Ray a while ago. Checkout the "Mede8er" as a multimedia player in the true sense of the word that plays just about anything. You don't even need a hard drive installed to play, you can play from a USB stick.

We're going to see a flood of these player entering the market soon.