I think the last two posts kind of get to the crux of the matter as I see it. This isn't unique to BMI or ASCAP or any other such body, just take the AMA as another example.
The problem is whenever you have a body run by an elite it will by its very nature look after the interests of that elite and the grass roots be damned. You see it's only the elite who have the resources to be make themselves heard, even the rank and file members don't get a look in, be it because they're excluded from voting, don't have the time to attend meetings or the meetings are held on the other side of the continent so only those who can afford the cost of being their get their voices heard. And of course the voting elite keep making certain they have the money to stay as the voting elite.
Now as DSE pointed out the view is very different form the inside looking out. Of course it will be and the more different it is the more there is wrong with the organisation, be it the BMI, the AMA or the stonemasons.
Not that I know that much about the music industry but just looking at the rhetoric bouncing around lately and not just on this forum, it's pretty obvious that there's a huge disconnect between a number of industry bodies, the industry itself, the grass roots players and the public.
Such states of play are historically not unusual, particularly after the widespread introuduction of a new technology and are usually an indicator of some tectonic shift in the landscape. The bigger question is who has the foresight to ride the wave to greater rewards and who gets dumped and drowns. History shows that it's mostly the old guard that gets swept away, they're too busy bickering amongst themselves to even hear the tsanami approaching.

Bob.

It's a very simple situation, folks.

1. If you are not a songwriter or artist on a label, or don't own an establishment where music is played publicly, read or post no further. It doesn't concern you.

2. Anyone left? Besides Spot? (just joking, call off the dogs)

3. If you own an establishment, pay the license fees to ASCAP and BMI, and play all the songs you want. Period.

4. If you're a songwriter or artist, pick one of those organizations. Not both. One. Join, and register your tunes with them. Your agent takes the money paid by the establishment owner and gives you a cut.

that's it. Has nothing to do with your record contract, the RIAA, iTunes, downloading, sync, ripping, nothing.

<edit> if you DON'T join ascap or bmi, they cannot help you if your music is being played without your consent.

First i wanted to say I did not post this thread and vanish just to see it grow. I have been busy with other matters and right now I am trying to try and, at least for a time, diminish a horrid night last night so this is good for me to read all this and also suprised to see the thread grew so much.

Ok - lots of little comments I wanted to say here and they may all sort of overlap. First it was reported, by BMI via a press release, that they sent out 48 letters and the were ignored. I don't recall any mention of any of them being recieved by the resturant, or if any were sent via certified/return reciept and, if so, how many were signed for. Like wise BMI claims to have called over 30 times and those calls were ignored. No mention of if they spoke with someone, who they called, or if they left voice mails and if so, what did those voice mails say. So a lot of people posted a lot of things based on guessing. So my slant in response is that If BMI reps and/or lawyers phoned and were professional I don't think they would have left a ranting message such as "Hey scum, stop ignoring us. We will sue your ass!" but rather it may have been more like "Could someone please contact us about BMI licensing." In which case one might feel it was just a solicitation and ignore the phone call. (hey I have caller ID and am prone to ignore any incoming "800" calls or "blocked calls" than come up. Whose to say the incoming call didn't show up as that and was ignored?) Same might go for any letters. Again - I don't know but from what *was* said in the interview the owner said something to the effect that some BMI letters had been tossed because they thought it was junk mail. If this is true I doubt the letters came certified mail and probably were worded along the line of "you need to pay for a BMI license". Maybe you or I would read this more in detail but perhaps a 60 - 70 year old would not...depends on the person. It also seems than a lawyer was contacted after the returant was handed the lawsuit which might indicate that there were not certified letters sent out before hand - or if there were they were never recieved as I said. Keeping in mind I have not heard or read anything saying that BMI provided that "x amount of signed reciepts" came back for the possible certified mail that someone here mentioned was sent.

A few say that if the resturant was making money from these songs than BMI (the artists actually) should be paid. I can agree with that but I have not heard for sure if there was any sort of cover charge on any Karaoke night. To me, as I read it, this is a resturant. The main money for them is from being such. People come in, sit down, and eat food. To draw somewhat of a comparison - some live music venues have, and enforce, a 2 or 3 drink minimum. While that may be their right if I pay any amount of money to see a live act that means I am going to see the live act - not buy drinks or eat food. I don't feel someone has a right to tell me I must buy drinks or food or be removed from the venue after I have already paid a cover to come in the door. So if the BMI rep freely walked into this resturant, sat down, ordered dinner and than observed people gleefully singing along to some tunes I don't see that as anything worth the $70,000 end result thus far. No one forced anyone to: 1> Choose that song and sing it 2> Charged anyone to sing that song 3> paid anyone to Karaoke to that song (ok, so maybe some friends or family egged them on or tripple dogged dared them) 4> Advertised that that song would be played 5> forced any person to pay to come in the door and again pay to eat food and drink in order to sing that BMI repped song. So that sort of makes me in agreement with the person who spoke of paying a fee just in case someone might play the piano in the pub. Now it is another story all together when you talk abut the jukebox. The resturant supposedly has one and they do pay ASCAP fees - but I did not hear anything in BMI's release or any article that any of the lawsuit was about BMI artists being played on the jukebox. I am sorry but I find it hard to believe that not one BMI repped act was on a jukebox.

So now lets take it one step further. Part of the lawsuit also said that one night the BMI rep saw a live act playing a cover song from a BMI act. However, again, no mention of if there was a door charge that night or if this live act advertised they were going to play this one song. At face value it may not seem important but certianly if people were going to see an act that was doing certian advertised, or implied, songs than sure - the orginal artist/author should be paid what is due them. But there was no mention of who this act was, only that the resturant paid nothing to BMI for allowing this act to play this one BMI repped song. Seems like a bit of overkill on that one to me. Say I hired Spot to come in and play one night and he starts going off on some Ian Anderson riff. Suddenly I start getting letters and calls saying I need to pay royalties for something that I may not really know anything about. (Assuming that Spot was hired to play nice flute music and that I had no real idea that he was doing a cover at any point) Should I blindly pay this on the off chance someone else might play Ian Anderson riffs or should I start asking questions? And should I than go to Spot and ask what he played and make him pay the fees I was being asked to pay? This is a fair question because on the whole, bars/resturants don't sit down and require set lists for artists before they play and most don't require someone only play ASCAP repped music or BMI repped music. However some club owners do require that only original music is played for that reason this whole thread got started. I mean really Spot and other musicians here should know that when they decide to walk onto a stage and do a cover it isn't they who pay BMI or ASCAP, it is the venue because it is just "assumed" they are paying the fees associated with public performance. I could join a "tribute" band right now and go out and make lots of money playing other peoples music live and never have to worry about being sued by BMI or ASCAP even if I never give them any money myself.

I hope I am not the only person, musician or otherwise, who doesn't see the odd little irony in that.

A funny comment Spot made I just have to comment on: Courtney Love, Artist....someone to be listened to? During her coherent states? Or just when she's drugged?. Now I know that it is said in somewhat of an ironic manner but I thought that taking some excellent comments (keep in mind I actually posted a link to this same speech a while ago and we all had a nice thread on the same topic) and disallowing them because of how Ms Love acts at time is a bit like saying "yeah well your mother dresses you funny." So here are variations on a theme -

"Jim Morrison, Artist....someone to be listened to? During his coherent states? Or just when he's drugged?"

"Janis Joplin, Artist....someone to be listened to? During her coherent states? Or just when she's drugged?"

"Jimi Hendrix, Artist....someone to be listened to? During his coherent states? Or just when he's drugged?"

"Ozzy, Artist....someone to be listened to? During his coherent states? Or just when he's drugged?"

"Scott Wiedlin, Artist....someone to be listened to? During his coherent states? Or just when he's drugged?"

Anyone can play..see? (Nothing personal - really Spot)

Now Spot asked a few quesitons that sort of went unanswered so I wanted to touch on them. I can see how at face value they might relate but really are different than this case. Spot asked if The Discovery Channel should be able to purchase a DVD from a store and broadcast it over their system without paying any money to the films creator. He also asked if they could do the same thing and use it as promotion for their channel. My answer is much the same as what I said above in reguards to the resturant, which may not have been advertising these BMI songs. In other words most networks sell advertising time based on the content. Most networks would love to get something for free and than sell advertising. PBS and other outlets often use items such as DVD's as incentives for fund raisers. The variation on the main topic I posted here is that many times it is the rep who makes these deals, not the person who may have made the DVD. So in a way it is the same thing. To be clear - some rep that I may have hired goes out and strikes a deal with, say, Showtime to air my film. Showtime gives the rep $45,000.00 to air the film. However I sold the rep the rights to rep the film for $10,000.00 and I don't get anything out of the money he got. Likewise maybe some promotions director gives PBS 500 copies of my DVD to give away and than when it comes to get money from the studio they show me the break down and why I don't have more money coming to me - and of course there are those 500 copies listed and the costs involved to "promotions." Do I agree with any of this? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Bottom line really is that sure the resturant probably should have paid for both the ASCAP and BMI license but I know many palces that have one or the other, not both. BMI is normaly more expensive than ASCAP. This makes a difference in mom and pop places.

*EDIT - some spelling

Interesting debate---How about this. Karoake might increase record sales and thus it shouldn't be policed---In other words, someone goes into a Karoake bar, hears someone sing a song they like, and goes out and buys it.

The point is that the record co's are wasting their time and money on something that in my mind isn't hurting them economically, and in fact could be helping them economically. Just a thought.

Keith - e-mail me.