OT. Camera Budget

Jedman wrote on 3/22/2015, 5:41 AM

Ive been struggling with a decision to get a new camcorder for a while. I have a Sony Z5 which I mostly love, but its lacking in lower light situations which occur regularly in the type of work I do, being dancing/event type filming.
I've never really considered myself a "professional" like I assume most are on this forum, since videography isn't my principal source of income. However, over the last couple of years I do make some regular money from it.
I bought my Z5 used on ebay (couldn't justify buying new at the time) and it has served me well. Ive looked back on ebay at EX1Rs and EX3s and anything else that rumors say are good low light cameras. Looked at the AX100 and X70... gain in low light, lose in usability...

Now I'm thinking why not just go for it and get what I really want....... Sony PXW X200, because everything else seems like a compromise.
Then I wake up and think. its almost 10k, don't be foolish.

Sorry about the back story, just trying to show my state of mind, but now for the question....

What do you suppose a formula might be for deciding what a one man videography business should invest in a new cam?
One jobs profit, one years profit?
I talked to an older guy at a concert recently and he was telling me he spent 60k on a camera less than 20 years ago and now its worse than a handycam.
We are spoilt with technology now I guess.
I probably dont need a X200 to keep doing what Im doing, but is it a good business plan to always get by with the cheapest option to just get the job done?

Yes I should stop whining about it and buy the cam I want, but its a toss up between who will win, the camera guy on my left shoulder saying, Go on, you know you want it, and the accountant on my right shoulder, saying, Don't be an idiot. lol

So anyway, really interested in any and all opinions.

Comments

farss wrote on 3/22/2015, 6:03 AM

Your options really depend on what you shoot.
For example the X200 has 1/2" chips which is a plus for low light but the X160 has 1/3" chips but a longer lens which is handy for events.
Even if you're buying the EX1r (personally I much prefer the EX1 but I own one) again you need to think about the lens aspect as much as anything. Also Sony's CineAlta cameras do produce a very different look to cameras such as the Z5 and have many more image tweaks, expect to spend some time getting familiar with them. One other word of caution, factor in the cost of media, with many of the cameras on the market today enough media to hold several hours of video using the highest bitrate codecs the camera offers can add quite a lot to the total cost of ownership.

Bob.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/22/2015, 7:41 AM

Have a look at the HXR-NX3/1.

videoITguy wrote on 3/22/2015, 9:59 AM

IMO the current crop of prosumer offerings in the $2999 to $4500 range is no where near a match for what you got in the single camera Z5. In other words no single camera offers the best combo. The market is very divided and split into faction camps.
On the other hand, if a person shops carefully between supporting selections you can pair up some extraordinary two camera purchases for a total of about of $7200. out the door. Never has such an opportunity awaited us before - but probably not wise to do this if you are just one man shop.

Len Kaufman wrote on 3/22/2015, 10:03 AM

Now that the Canon C100 MK2 has been released, the original C100 version is going for greatly reduced prices. I had the C100 (traded up to the C100 MK2 for the improvements) and found it very good in low light...especially with Neat Video following along in post. And you can pair that C100 with some fast glass, to further enhance your low light capability.

JackW wrote on 3/22/2015, 3:02 PM

OP asks "What do you suppose a formula might be for deciding what a one man videography business should invest in a new cam? One jobs profit, one years profit?"

In the 17 years our company has been in business we've always asked of a purchase "How long do we believe it will take to amortize the cost of this piece of equipment." For us, two to three years is realistic. We bought two Sony Z5Us and an X70 last September and have already earned back 50% of the cost, putting us well ahead of our projected goal of three years.

I don't believe we got the jobs because we were shooting with the Z5U and X70; we would have gotten them if we were still shooting with our PD-150s. The point is that we have enough income from what we shoot to to justify the cost of the new cameras and to amortize that cost in a timely manner.

Strictly from a business viewpoint, spending six to eight thousand dollars on a camera when most of your four or five jobs each year are billed at four to five hundred dollars probably doesn't make much sense.

From a tech junkie viewpoint, though, having a state of the art high-end camera sure does give you bragging rights!

Jack

farss wrote on 3/22/2015, 3:25 PM

[I]"IMO the current crop of prosumer offerings in the $2999 to $4500 range is no where near a match for what you got in the single camera Z5."[/I]

The PXW-X160 is under $4,000 and is pretty much the Z5 with a new backend plus you get an electronic variable ND filter and 4:2:2 recording and more codec choice than you probably want.

For a bit more there's the PXW-X180 with Bluetooth and WiFi connectivity, not that I see that as being a huge bonus but some will make good use of it.

The only issue with this camera coming from the Z5 is you're going to need new batteries. So far we're getting better performance at a drastically cheaper price from the Yum Cha batteries so even the cost of batteries isn't that great at under $100 each.

Bob.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/22/2015, 8:45 PM

I think it really depends on your work and delivery. Event videographers, wedding and there like, are most likely still delivering on DVD and a camera like HXR-NX3/1 is more then sufficent for the job considering that the OP's Z5 is only HDV. Further more, the NX3/1 records on less expensive media then the PWX-180. It basically is an upgraded NX5 with full HD size 3CMOS chips.

farss wrote on 3/23/2015, 1:10 AM

Certainly the NX3 is an option however the OP did hint he was thinking of something that was as future proof as his budget would allow and there has been a big shift to 1080 @ 4:2:2. For sure that's pretty meaningless if you're still delivering SD DVDs but for how much longer will that be the case. From comments by the unwashed masses even they can see the difference in chroma sampling on their 4K TVs. The media the PXW-X160 uses isn't as expensive as what the PMW-200 eats (SxS Pro+ OUCH), it's kind of halfway.

Bob.

Jedman wrote on 3/23/2015, 2:44 AM

Thanks for the replies, lots of good opinions.
The x160 is on sale right now here, with a note on the website saying price will go up significantly in coming days due to weak Aussie dollar.
The zoom length of the x160 would be better than the 200 and media is cheaper....

I checked actual prices today on the PXW X200 and it is almost twice the price of the 160 :(

I was really keen on the NX3, but have read a few reviews stating its technology is older and already dated.
The 160 with its big zoom and cheaper media is only about $800 more than the NX3 here ATM.
Can anyone confirm that the low light ability of the NX3 and or the 160/180 is a great deal better than the Z5? They would have to be wouldnt it? Even my Canon HFG10 blows the Z5 away for low light!

farss wrote on 3/23/2015, 4:31 AM

[I]"Can anyone confirm that the low light ability of the NX3 and or the 160/180 is a great deal better than the Z5?"[/I]

Here's a thought, why not rent one for a weekend and do your own tests?
There is a gradual improvement in sensor tech and in signal processing over time so I would *expect* the improvement your looking for but even if I was to run side by side tests numbers can be deceptive. I certainly wouldn't expect any mind blowing improvement but it could be enough for what you need.

Disclaimer: I work for a rental house in Sydney.

bob.

Jedman wrote on 3/23/2015, 5:03 AM

Lol. I was just about to say I cant rent one locally. Im on Central Coast, not much up here in the sticks Bob.
I should though. What is rental procedure? And how much is it for a weekend, say for the X160 and or NX3?
Where in Sydney is pick up?
Likely answer is no, but you dont have an agent up here do you?

farss wrote on 3/23/2015, 6:40 AM

X160 is $190 for a weekend.
Sorry no NX3.

Drop me a PM if you're interested, maybe we can work something out.

Bob.

Jedman wrote on 3/23/2015, 6:01 PM

Thanks Bob.
Woke up early thinking about this and after a cpl of hours Googling reviews and watching clips.... call me impulsive but PXW X160 is on its way.
Will report when it gets here.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
cheers guys

ushere wrote on 3/23/2015, 9:53 PM

please let us, or at least me (email via here), know what you're findings are.

i'm using z5 very happily but would like a more robust codec than hdv, HOWEVER, unless there's a NOTABLE pic improvement i'll hang out for a 200, even, as bob points out, media is way too expensive ;-(

Jedman wrote on 3/23/2015, 10:05 PM

Will do Leslie
Cheers
Gerald :)

Jerry K wrote on 3/23/2015, 10:47 PM

Ive been struggling with a decision to get a new camcorder for a while. I have a Sony Z5 which I mostly love, but its lacking in lower light situations which occur regularly in the type of work I do, being dancing/event type filming.

I own the Sony HDR-AX2000 which has the same camera head, 1/3" chips and lens as the Sony Z5. I have no problem shooting weddings or events in a dimly lit room.

My feeling is the Z5 is a very acceptable camcorder for event work if you have it properly setup and have a good light on top or on a stand.

At a wedding events in a dimly lit room I use a 20w light on the camera plus auto iris and auto gain which is topped off at 12db or sometimes 9db. I mostly use these settings during fast moving action when filming a wedding entrance so this way when shooting at a distance where the camera light might not reach out very well the camcorder will gain up and compensate for the lack of light and as I follow the wedding part in and they get closer into my camera light my camcorder will gain down.

If you try shooting in a dimly lit reception hall with gains of 0db, 3db or 6db you will probably not be very happy on the long shots being the video will be dark and dreary. You need to have your camera gain up higher even though the picture might show some noise I find it better then a dark dreary picture. Just my two cents.

Jerry K.

farss wrote on 3/23/2015, 11:34 PM

[I]"HOWEVER, unless there's a NOTABLE pic improvement i'll hang out for a 200"[/I]

AFAIK you can use cheap SDHC cards with MxM adaptors in the 200 but only to record XDCAM @ 35Mbps. If you want the fastest codec you need the uber expensive Sony cards, and BIG ones too. The alarming thing is the camera will happily try to record to the not quite so expensive SxS Pro cards until it overruns some buffer and then you can lose some of your video. We had someone find this out the hard way :(

Bob.

ushere wrote on 3/24/2015, 3:34 AM

bob, relatively to the z5, (which i know you had as a hire cam so have some experience of it), would you rate the 180 and the 200 with their different chips?

alternatively, against your ex1 (and possibly ex3 as well)?

not that i'm unhappy with my z5 - far from it, but if i can get a much better pic for a relatively low upgrade price i might think more seriously about it.

might add not interested in 4k at all for the foreseeable future.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/24/2015, 10:04 AM

@Bob

Do you know if the X160 can record 422 onto a SD card or only SxS?

rmack350 wrote on 3/24/2015, 12:55 PM

Here's a thought, why not rent one for a weekend and do your own tests?

I also (used to) work in a rental house. We had general pricing rules of thumb that certain items should break even within a certain number of rental days. Tungsten lights and grip equipment we'd allow 50 rental days but camera gear was probably more like 20 rental days.

This is a tougher equation if you're lowballing all your work and not billing for your gear, or if you don't actually shoot many days in the year. In that case maybe you go into a co-op arrangement to get the camera out in the field more often and make your nut back before the camera goes obsolete.

Personal ownership is a different calculation. It's worth looking at rental prices to get a baseline since you can divide the retail cost by the rental price to get the days until payback, BUT you also factor in the cost to you in time spent dealing with the rental house, including pickups and returns. Maybe it's worth it to you to bypass that effort.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/24/2015, 1:18 PM

I think Bob's proposal was more meant as a test rather then a long term solution.

rmack350 wrote on 3/24/2015, 1:56 PM

I think Bob's proposal was more meant as a test rather then a long term solution.

I wasn't suggesting a long term solution, just a comparison to get some sense of how to judge a budget. When you start to ask questions like whether it should add up to a day's, week's, or month's income then the rental comparison helps to clarify things. And of course renting a camera helps you decide what you really want to buy.

It also gives you some sense of what an emergency replacement would cost you. If you have a personal camera go down on a paying gig then you might need to rent a camera for a few days to finish the job. The rental price sets a very real value on a day's use of your gear.

Sometimes it actually works out cheaper to rent than to buy, especially you're being paid to shoot but not shooting all the time. This is especially true of people who will spend much more time editing and finishing than actually shooting. Nevertheless, there's a certain value to having all your gear easy to get at on a whim.

Jedman wrote on 3/26/2015, 4:49 AM

X160 came today. Short summary is its amazing!
Just having a quick play and the first thing Im noticing is the increase in DR compared to the Z5,
ie. In a dark room with TV luminance only looking past my son at a double glass sliding door which is full of bright afternoon light. Ive got good exposure of my son AND good exposure of a fence and clouds in sunset.
Will report back.
PS. For people in Australia, Have to give Videopro a great wrap. 48hrs from internet order to my doorstep. Free postage, and emails the whole way along with live tracking. Excellent service.

ushere wrote on 4/1/2015, 7:21 AM

interesting article courtesy of geebax:

http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/2477-sony-pxw-x200-for-some,-this-is-the-ideal-type-of-camera

@jedman - if you have time i would like to hear more re comparison to z5 - you can email me via here.