LOL, this is getting funny, really.

Filmy, you keep changing the scenario! I wasn't talking about the screenwriting example--totally different from the original (I accept responsibility for the mix-up here). Stick to the first one: "Say you shoot an infomercial for a company. You create the whole thing, they pay you a lump sum to create, plam, shoot and finish it and you hand the edited version over to them."

Under these circumstances, and these only, how can "you," as used above, own anything or hold any copyright? "You" can't because "you" qualifies, in this scenario, as a "work for hire." "You" was hired to do one thing and one thing only--make the infommercial--which "you" did and that was what "you" was paid for, no more, no less. "You" has no claim on the material, raw or edited, whatsoever.

J--

1> Secenrio was made simple.
2> your response prompted a more detailed explination.
3> And so on.

"Say you shoot an infomercial for a company. You create the whole thing, they pay you a lump sum to create, plan, shoot and finish it and you hand the edited version over to them."

is the same thing I later describe but tried to make it more clear. That is all. :) Nothing changed at all. I guess in later posts it became "Say you shoot an infomercial for "A". You ("B") creates the whole thing, "A" pays you a lump sum to create, plan, shoot and finish it and you hand the edited version over to them. " Now just go to the other posts for more details. :)

Form the copyright office:
=====
Q - WHO IS THE OWNER OF THE COPYRIGHT IN A WORK MADE FOR HIRE?

A - If a work is a work made for hire, the employer or other person for whom the work was prepared is the initial owner of the copyright unless there has been a written agreement to the contrary signed by both parties.
======
So in the overly simple sense - and we have to assume here - an 'infomercial' would more than likely be something that was done *for* some company. "A" comes to "B" and says "I want to promote/hype a new product." "B" agrees and creates the informercial. Who owns the copyright? In the overly simple version "A" does...so VC is a happy camper now. However nothing is simple and the key thing is this - " If a work is a work made for hire..." Yes - *if*. In my scenrio "A" comes to "B" and asks "I want to promote/hype a new product." But you need to know the rest of the conversation. That is what I has felt was implied by my answers. The rest of the conversation might go something like "Well do it than" "I don't know how, that is why I am coming to you" "What do you want us to do?" "I want to come up with a concept, a script, hire the crew, direct it, produce it, edit it - well...I want you to make it."

Chances are in infomercial land it wouldn't work this way because, again, infomercials are usually made *for* some product. I would find it weird for someone to just randomly say "Boy I feel like doing an informercial for this cool hair gel" or for some producer to randomly say "I want to make an infomercial but I really have no idea about what". In the film world it is a bit different because you can have "A" say to "B" somehting like "I want you to make a horror movie" and not too much else. Likewise you can have "B" say "I want to make a horror movie, I just need to find "A" so I can get it made."

However to be very clear what I said at the start and what I sai dlater was the same - all I did was expand on it because I felt what i meant was not being heard. The copyright office says that "for whom the work was prepared is the initial owner of the copyright" and that is why I have said what I have said. Was the work prepared for "A" by "B" or was it prepared for "B" by various people that "B" hired? Was their a script? Who created the script? Was there a score? Who created the score?

Can you hear me now?

"Copyright in a motion picture is automatically secured when the work is created and “fixed” in a copy. Only the expression (camera work, dialogue, sounds, etc.) fixed in a motion picture is protectible under copyright. Copyright does not cover the idea or concept behind the work or any characters portrayed in the work."

This is referring to an entirely different situation. This only applies to the originator/creator/artist of the motion picture. As was said elsewhere above, if it were my idea, I go out and "express" that idea in a "fixed copy," only then is it mine. This does not apply to me if I am approached by someone to shoot their idea and they pay me for every aspect of the production that I perform, unless it is contractually agreed to prior.

It's no different than a singer/song writer going into a recording studio and saying, "I wrote a song and I play the guitar. I want you to use your expertise and recording facilities to record me playing my guitar and singing my song. I want that delivered on a CD."

"Okay," says the recording engineer. He goes on to explain, "We charge $75 an hour for our services."

"Great," says the singer/song writer. "Let's do it!"

The engineer sets up everything, records the guitar track, records the voice track, mixes the two, burns it to a CD and says, "All right, here's your CD. That took a total of four hours, plus cost of materials, the total invoice comes to $350."

The singer/song writer pays the engineer the $350 and goes home.

The engineer owns nothing. He holds no copyright on the material--mixed or unmixed. He was a "work for hire, just like Aspenv was.

J--

"Now just go to the other posts for more details."

You continue to bring in examples that do not fit within the original question(s).

"Maybe. The completed project is copyrighted. The footage is copyrighted in the context of the complete project however there could be lots of unused footage. This footage would have to be presented in some form in order to be copyrighted."

Think so? Get an outtake from any major motion picture. Exhibit it in public, even charge folks to see it (or not), and see what happens to you!

That's why your agrument isn't working.

J--

P.S. I'm done. ;o)

Go argue with the US copyright office for a while now...they can provide you with way more specifics on what gets copyrighted, and why, than I can. You disagree with I say and you disagree with what they say. I don't know what more to say...in the words of Python, Monty LTD:

"Hello, I 've come for an argument"
"No you haven't"
"Yes I have"
"No you haven't"

Geewhizzer, this thread and the Super Sampling thread are taking up most of my day.