"You were the one who put forward the argument that the fate of BD rests with what the soccer mums want."

I did? Could you please show me where? Soccer Moms have NOTHING to do with "the fate of bd".... Sony and the BDA control that one. Go back and read my opening statements to this thread.

Your original question was:
"So tell us , what does BD give us apart from more pixels, exactly?"
to which several people gave rather detailed answers to. Then all of a sudden out of the blu (no pun intended) we're off on another tangent comparing blu ray to the EX1 and 4K film cams and yadda yadda and I have NO idea why. Could you PLEASE tell me???

"Im not sure what you mean by it. What has AVCHD got to do with Blu-Ray? What about HDV? The same render makes HDV play on a Blu-Ray machine."

Not really a big issue... a lot of people that I know have gotten into memory card type avchd cams because they can take the card out and pop it into the blu ray player for instant playback.

take the card out and pop it into the blu ray player for instant playback.

That is a cool feature.

As cheap as flash memory is getting, they should just start putting commercial movies on it.

"They also cannot differentiate between 4 x 3 stretched and 4 x 3 normal."

That's spot on in my experience. A customer of mine prefers it stretched. When I corrected the aspect ratio to show him what it should look like, he insisted it be switched back.

"I did? Could you please show me where?"

"The truth of the matter is that average soccer mom will most likely never get the chance snap off a shot of the kids with the Hubble scope.... OR.... a 4K big screen cam for that matter. What we're talking about here is good quality at the consumer level... 4K cams... Hubble scopes... even EX1's are a bit out of the average consumer's price range. "

And:
"HDV (and Blu Ray) has given the average soccer Mom the ability to shoot great video (1080i) without really knowing how."

"Then all of a sudden out of the blu (no pun intended) we're off on another tangent comparing blu ray to the EX1 and 4K film cams and yadda yadda and I have NO idea why."

Why? Because most of the people who've made the investment to shoot for and author BD content aren't soccer mums. They're serious players in this game. I haven't a clue how you could assume I'm comparing BD to a camera, that's absurd. One is a content delivery system, the two others are a camera (EX1) and a DCI (Digital Cinema Initiative) content format specification. I bought up 4K in the context of how good Blade Runner looks re-released on BD. My comment was purely that if you want to be blown away by a cinematic experience on the very large screen then the extra pixels of 4K is the thing to see.
What has that got to do with the fate of BD, a lot. The studios are at war with themselves and the cinema owners. Both sides of the one camp keep upping the ante to put bums on seats in the cinemas and to sell home cinema systems and content for that.

Why did I ask what does BD give us apart from more pixels, to which we got one correct answer, better audio. The point there was that the BD spec was written a long time ago when display technology was much cruder than it is today. The color gamut and dynamic range (contrast ratio) of modern LCDs has improved dramatically at affordable prices and it's improving all the time thanks to dynamic LED backlighting. We're now getting close to being able to have a real cinema experience in our homes. Unfortunately the BD spec probably isn't upto the task. That's a problem, if they were to rejig the thing the impact on consummer sales would plummet, BD or any such technology needs a long period of stability to mature and gain acceptance.

My only issue with BD is the same as everyone here's. The cost of replication for 2nd teir producers is outrageous, quoted figures of $10K per title makes it out of the reach of small production companies and independant producers. It's cheaper to make 100 digital prints for cinema release than the flag fall for releasing on BD.

Bob.

""I did? Could you please show me where?""

Bob you're imagining things. No where in that statement does it say that Blu Ray life is dependent on Soccer Mom's.


"Why? Because most of the people who've made the investment to shoot for and author BD content aren't soccer mums. They're serious players in this game."

Come on Bob... that's just nonsense. Can we have a show of hands as to how many are Authoring Blu Ray on a professional basis for clients? Are we doing this in any sort of large quantity?
Most of the Blu Ray burning crowd at this point Bob is little more than hobbyists and enthusiasts.... nothing more


"Why did I ask what does BD give us apart from more pixels, to which we got one correct answer, better audio"

Wrong. You were given several good and correct answers. Go back and read.

"Can we have a show of hands as to how many are Authoring Blu Ray on a professional basis for clients?"

My hand is up.

"My hand is up."

Great.... That's one!

A customer of mine prefers it stretched. When I corrected the aspect ratio to show him what it should look like, he insisted it be switched back.

So they like "widescreen" because it is so much more "21st Century" than the 4x3 their grandparents grew up with.

It's an emotional choice.

Heck, there are Widescreen Stoves!

These are very efficient in-room wood stoves with glass doors, used for room heating in cabins etc., and they now also provide a "widescreen experience."

Only one channel, but much better programming!

My hand is up. Bluray was really the only option for allowing my client to view hd in his home with a monitor he is familiar with. As far as quality? All I can say is it was excellent. Best the film we worked on for 2 years has ever looked.

I just convinced another associate how easy the Bluray path seems to be, he jumped in, burned a Bluray and took a rough cut to his client, they were blown away, they were used to seeing everything on a big screen in SD, the client was excited. That's never a bad thing.

"Can we have a show of hands as to how many are Authoring Blu Ray on a professional basis for clients?"

My hand is up.
==============
Not a single request for a Blu-Ray version from any client to date.

John

"Not a single request for a Blu-Ray version from any client to date."

I've said this before and I'll say it again; If your business model is built around just sitting around and waiting for your clients to bring work to you, then you're missing out. It's up to us to inform and educate our clients and apply some good old-fashioned salesmanship. Once I was able to provide HD and again when I was able to offer Blu-ray, I marketed these capabilities, I certainly didn't sit on my butt waiting for someone to ask me about it.

Amen to that, JC!

It has been my experience that most people just ask for someone to come and "film" their wedding etc.

They have no clue about formats. Unless you educate them!

In the 1980s, an American beer maker (I think it was Coors) started advertising that their beer was made only with specially selected hops, and they went on to describe all the care that went into the brewing process, etc.

Sales immediately shot upwards, even though they weren't doing anything different from all the other industrial brewers.

If you offer HD in any form whether BD or not, let the "film my wedding" customers know what benefits they will receive picking you over all the other guys.

So much clearer (this is not just resolution!), and colors are richer and more accurate (you don't need to get technical and explain that the 25% of subject color recorded in NTSC DV (i.e. 75% discarded) is cut to only 12.5% in making a 4:2:0 DVD, while HDV etc. already records in 4:2:0 so there is no further loss, you keep the 25%: just show a few stills shot side-by-side in NTSC DV and HD and lifted from the DVD and BD disks...).

[i]"So much clearer (this is not just resolution!), and colors are richer and more accurate (you don't need to get technical and explain that the 25% of subject color recorded in NTSC DV (i.e. 75% discarded) is cut to only 12.5% in making a 4:2:0 DVD, while HDV etc. already records in 4:2:0 so there is no further loss, you keep the 25%: just show a few stills shot side-by-side in NTSC DV and HD and lifted from the DVD and BD disks...)."[i]

If you shoot HD and encode directly to mpeg-2 for either SD DVD or BD you will not loose chroma data. If you need a SD intermediate the Sony YUV codec will preserve the 4:2:2 sampling.

Bob.

"Sales immediately shot upwards, even though they weren't doing anything different from all the other industrial brewers."

This is a wee bit different than buying/selling beer. No matter which beer you consume... it all gets consumed the same way. On the other hand you can't put a BD disk in a dvd player and watch it on your 13" CRT.

BD requires the proper (and expensive) equipment.... Which is one of the reasons that you will only find it in the hands of enthusiasts right now. It's also one of the reasons as to why BD is not doing too well.

"Not a single request for a Blu-Ray version from any client to date."

I've said this before and I'll say it again; If your business model is built around just sitting around and waiting for your clients to bring work to you, then you're missing out. It's up to us to inform and educate our clients and apply some good old-fashioned salesmanship. Once I was able to provide HD and again when I was able to offer Blu-ray, I marketed these capabilities, I certainly didn't sit on my butt waiting for someone to ask me about it.
=======================
Wow!

A low blow and a big assumption don't you think John? You asked for the show of hands, now you bite it off? Thanks a lot!
Hundreds of DVDs per stage performance. If they have BD players they would ask for BD versions. The dance studios haven't either.

John

First of all, I wasn't the one who asked for a show of hands. Secondly, if they knew that Blu-ray versions were available (even at a premium price) perhaps some of them would order them. Maybe not.

"You asked for the show of hands,...."

Actually he didn't ask.... I did. I do NOT however assume that you sit on your ass all day doing nothing

If you shoot HD and encode directly to mpeg-2 for either SD DVD or BD you will not loose chroma data. If you need a SD intermediate the Sony YUV codec will preserve the 4:2:2 sampling.

I'm not saying you lose any chroma when you shoot 4:2:0 HDV and render to MPEG-2 for DVD.

I'm only saying that if you shoot NTSC DV (4:1:1) and render that to 4:2:0 MPEG-2 for DVD, you get your original chroma capture cut in half.

If you're not shooting 4:2:2, there is no 4:2:2 to preserve. Perhaps you're thinking chroma smoothing?

"Sales immediately shot upwards, even though they weren't doing anything different from all the other industrial brewers."

This is not different from selling beer from the point that was made about educating prospective buyers about the benefits of a different choice.

Watching BD requires a $250 player. Many people who could afford that aren't even aware of the benefits, so they go with the lowest bidder.

If they had seen an ad or a web page saying "future-proof your memories in HD for only $500 more than DV home video!" or "future-proof your memories in HD for no extra money compared to the DV home video vendors!" and the benefits were clearly explained, they would bite right away, while the dreamers who are waiting for customers to come and ask them will be busy re-sorting the papers on their desktops.

It was the same thing many years ago with still cameras vs. 8 mm film cameras. No difference. Clearly explained benefits + customer without hole in pocket = new sale at competitor's expense.

If you are in a competitive business, you need to find a way to stand out. That's what the beer brewer did and that's what a videographer can do also (in many different ways).

If they have BD players they would ask for BD versions. The dance studios haven't either.

Never underestimate the ignorance of customers.

I have never ceased to be amazed over the things people can misunderstand, and how far removed they often are from every other reality than their own narrow niche.

If you don't tell them you have BD (or that you would consider it if people asked), they won't expect you to be able to offer it.

It's not like non-studio BDs have been a priority above Level -50 or thereabouts. Numerous obstacles were raised from the beginning, and it is hard for any videographer or publisher to feel Sony's love for small (< qty 10K per title) publishing on BD. That whole part seems to be just a nuisance and an afterthought.

"If you're not shooting 4:2:2, there is no 4:2:2 to preserve. Perhaps you're thinking chroma smoothing?"

Nothing to do with chroma smoothing.
If you shoot HDV there's around the same number of chroma samples in its 4:2:0 as there is in SD's 4:2:2. The numbers relate to the sampling at the given resolution.

From memory you don't quite get 4:2:2, it's something around 4:1.5:1.5 or maybe a bit better than that.

Bob.