On the other hand, every time you write a check to Visa or MC, or when they do a transfer to your account, you've given them your bank account numbers too.

On the other hand, every time you write a check to Visa or MC, or when they do a transfer to your account, you've given them your bank account numbers too.
=========
They do not keep it on record. I have asked them that question many many times. PayPal does.

John

"They do not keep it on record. I have asked them that question many many times."

And, you believe the telephone support person who probably isn't even located in this country? How the hell would they even know, or need to know?

The fact is, any credit holder can get your bank account numbers just by requesting your credit report. So if they wanted it, MasterCard and Visa could have your bank account numbers in just a few seconds.

I'll point out one more thing then. Not only has PayPal kept your bank account numbers since the beginning (this is how they transfer money to and from you when YOU request it), but they have had all their transfer and credit card processing fees since the beginning too. On top of that, they have never hidden that fact. All their fees and what they charge them for have been explicitly stated on their website since the beginning too. The are one of the most upfront companies in explaining exactly what they do and why and how much it will cost They even make this information available to you before you sign up for an account..

and you only pay the fees to Paypal when you use the service. Try that with traditional merchant accounts, amidst all the setup, equipment and monthly charges.

and you only pay the fees to Paypal when you use the service. Try that with traditional merchant accounts, amidst all the setup, equipment and monthly charges.

In addition, consider this: If PayPal were really such a horrible monster, how did they get so successful, almost overnight?? The Internet is littered with thousands of companies that didn't make it. Only the really good companies have a shot, and even then, most of them don't make it. If PayPal was really doing evil things to its customers, it would have been roadkill.

I do however, get a somewhat significant number of complaints from my traders, at daytradingu.com, who report problems with paypal in the past, asking for other merchant processors.

Although expensive, you can try other ones like regsoft.com (been using them for 5 years, they're great), or ibill.com etc.. it's always wise to have 2-3 different ways customers can pay.

given a choice, over 80% of my customers use the non paypal option over paypal, even if I give them a discount for using paypal. I really don't understand that, as I've been using paypal via ebay for years, and they've been perfect ... any ideas?

ken

It used to be that you had to register as a PayPal customer before paying a PayPal merchant using your credit card, and many people naturally resented this extra PITA step.

This is no longer the case.

There is a practical concern when using them for your merchant account needs though. Last year, they had a one-week 100% outage after a software upgrade, and they were keeping the outage under wraps the whole time. Merchants were angry because their revenues dropped to zero, and they were getting no help or information from PayPal.

Customers were angry because they couldn't use PayPal to buy anything.

Just to compare: Visa tests all software upgrades for one full year on a large complex test-only network before they let them go live, and even then they have massive failsafe recover options.

Other credit card processors have better IT management than PayPal, but I think they have been getting some help from eBay's staff after the company was bought.

If PayPal were really such a horrible monster, how did they get so successful, almost overnight??
=========
By being virtually the only method of payment for Ebay purchases, and by being a part of Ebay itself of course.

John

By being virtually the only method of payment for Ebay purchases, and by being a part of Ebay itself of course.

Most of my purchases on eBay in the early days were cashier or personal check. Many of my eBay purchases today are via credit card. PayPal didn't arrive on the eBay scene for several years after eBay was already successful. My first eBay transactions were back in September 1998, so I've dealt with them a long time. So, PayPal at the beginning was not "virtually the only method" for payment when eBay started; in fact, it didn't exist in those early days.

How about today? My suspicion is that PayPal is not as big a factor as you might think. While eBay doesn't release any figures, I just did a simple test. I did a search for the word "camera." I got the "149994 items found for camera" message when eBay returned the results. I then went to advanced search and specified to filter the search by selecting "Show Only Items Listed with PayPal." I got 140411 items. Thus, if this sample is representative, 94% of all eBay items are listed as being payable via PayPal. However, a quick sample showed that virtually all the listings also accepted money order or cashiers check. This has always been the case.

Thus, my conclusion is significantly different, namely that PayPal is nearly ubiquitous as a method for payment on eBay, but even now, it is clearly not "virtually the ONLY method of payment" (my emphasis).

As for PayPal's success being tied to being part of eBay, that isn't actually how it happened. PayPal was a completely independent entity from its founding until eBay agree to purchase it in July of 2002. The merger was completed in October 2002. In fact, eBay had its own payment scheme called Billpoint which, if your theory was correct, should have killed PayPal because eBay owned and operated Billpoint. In fact, Billpoint was poorly thought out and badly operated and didn't catch on. Following the completion of the merger, eBay killed Billpoint. Thus, PayPal made it all on its own, without help from eBay and, in fact, despite direct competition from eBay itself.

It won because it was better than it competition, and it continues to succeed because it offers tremendous value to all the individuals and small merchants who cannot qualify to accept credit card transactions but, through PayPal's "magic" can now accept a credit card transaction from anyone on the planet.

{{Though growing rapidly, PayPal was losing $10 million a month and was fraught with internal turmoil that led to three CEO changes in its first year of operations. Foreign organized crime rings found ways to steal millions from the young company by automatically registering accounts using stolen identities.......
eBay crippled the functionality of Billpoint by limiting it to only payments made for eBay auctions. Paypal was listed in several times more auctions than Billpoint. In February of 2000 there were approximately an average of 200,000 daily auctions advertising the Paypal service while Billpoint (in beta) had only 4,000 auctions. By April of 2000 there were more than 1,000,000 auctions promoting the Paypal service. Paypal was able to turn the corner and become the first dot-com to IPO after the September 11 attacks — an accomplishment that ironically backfired when PayPal's new high profile status helped prompt a slew of class action lawsuits and regulatory probes, including one by NY Attorney General Eliot Spitzer.

In October 2002 PayPal was acquired by eBay. PayPal had previously been the payment method of choice by over fifty percent of eBay users, and the service competed with eBay's subsidiary BillPoint. eBay has phased out its BillPoint service in favor of retaining the PayPal brand. PayPal no longer has any similar competitors,...
In 2004, the total value of transactions through the PayPal system was $18.9 billion, up 55% year over year. ..
Due to the manner in which it operates, PayPal is not considered a bank. Therefore it is not required to abide by the legislation that governs banks. Like Western Union, PayPal is considered a money transmitter.......
.......buyers are not ensured they receive the item they buy as it is described. So long as anything at all is sent, PayPal considers the transaction satisfactory. ..
.....the Seller Protection Policy includes a list of "Exclusions" which itself includes "Intangible goods", "Claims for receipt of goods 'not as described'" and "Total reversals over the annual limit". There are also other restrictions in terms of the sale itself, the payment method and the destination country the item is shipped to (simply having a tracking mechanism is not sufficient to guarantee the Seller Protection Policy is in effect)........
........ users agree to give PayPal the power to limit access to funds in the account for 180 days. This policy appears to protect PayPal from financial loss in the event of chargebacks or disputes. Banks and financial institutions provide chargeback rights for a specified period of time that varies by the institution. PayPal's account access limitations prevent the movement of funds until discrepancies, or terms of the limitation, are resolved.........In March 2002, two PayPal account holders separately sued the company for alleged violations of the Electronic Funds Transfer Act (EFTA).......The settlement requires that PayPal change its business practices (including changing its dispute resolution procedures to make them EFTA-compliant), as well as making a $9.25 million USD payment to members of the class. PayPal denies any wrongdoing.............
PayPal's Seller Protection policies do not cover intangible goods or goods that are "not as described"....................}}

Source: Wikipedia

John

So from the small business owner POV is "Yahoo! Small Business" then better than "Pay-Pal" as a shopping cart/ CC processor? i just started to use Pay-Pal and I agree they make life difficult (like demanding their phone numbers)f or my customers who wish to use credit cards.

they make life difficult (like demanding their phone numbers)f or my customers who wish to use credit cards.

When you have substantial online orders, you'll soon find an amazing number of customers who don't know their own addresses in a form that is recognized by the USPS or UPS.

You could try to contact them by e-mail, but alas, your e-mail bounces.

Now the customer doesn't get his product, but his credit card has been charged by your shopping cart.

After a short while, the customer gets very angry that you are such a flake, and calls his bank to protest the card charge. Your merchant account bank reverses the amount immediately, and tells you to submit major paperwork if you want to see that money again. Well, you weren't able to ship, so you didn't lose anything.

Unfortunately your troubles aren't over yet.

After some more of these reversals, your merchant account is canceled, or if you're very lucky, your card fees are just increased substantially.

And you are also known among those prospective customers' friends as a uselessly flakey supplier.

Makes that phone number seem reasonable, doesn't it?

It is very important to not have any unresolved charge inquiries. I have an 8-year 100% perfect track record on this, but I have taken many precautions, including doing a formal address verification on 100% of all shipments, and asking for both e-mail, billing address, shipping address, phone numbers, and shoe size.

It is also very important that the business name on their credit card statements match what the customer saw when placing the order. If your business is to sell "Learn Snarky in 24 hours" DVDs, and that is all you show on your web site, you'll have a lot of pain when customers don't recognize the $49.95 charge from "Hoola-Hoop Prods."

If your business is to sell "Learn Snarky in 24 hours" DVDs, and that is all you show on your web site, you'll have a lot of pain when customers don't recognize the $49.95 charge from "Hoola-Hoop Prods."

Could you explain this? I don't understand ...

Hee, hee, hee ...

When customers check their credit card statement and see a name they don't recognize, they call their bank and tell them "I didn't buy anything from "Hoola-Hoop Prods!"

The bank says, "Don't worry, we'll reverse the charge right away," and they do. Your merchant account bank gets a message saying to kiss off this amount and to immediately take the funds out of your account. They then slowly snail mail you a letter form asking if you would like to pursue this matter, with full backup documentation a) proving that this customer placed an order with you, and b) proving that the customer received the goods or services that he or she ordered.

Great fun, and if you fail, it counts as an "unresolved inquiry" and goes on your merchant bank's shit list for your business. Enough of these and you're out completely.

Actually, I understood what you meant. I was just laughing at your example. ;)

All right, all right.

I guess I need to look for the "hee hee" better next time.

:O) :O)

I can't add much to this as I'm not in the USA however down here it's not widely known that you can negotiate the merchant fee on credit cards, we've typically knocked them down by 1% which is quite a bit.

The other thing I'm suprised by is no ones mentioned DHL as a carrier. I buy a bit of gear direct from the USA and DHL are incredibly cheap compared to UPS and Fedex. One purchase the supplier was going to charge me USD 150 to ship a small item via UPS or Fedex. At my suggestion they got a quote from DHL at USD 50. They've since switch to DHL for all their international shipping.

A few years back I needed to get a wad of douments to my wife when she was in Taipei, rang DHL here and within the hour the man was at my door, helped me address the envelope which was no mean feat given how street addresses work in most Asian countries. 28 hours later the documents were in my wife's hands and for a reasonable charge of AUD 65.

And their online tracking is about 1 minute behind reality.

Bob.

DHL here in the states does ship domestically, but they are mostly known, and mostly used, for international shipments.

The phone number demanded by PayPal if a customer uses a Credit card is NOT made available to the merchant (me) so it is not much help. The customer should be prepared on recognising the charge from the email order confirmations, "Your order is shipped and your CC will be charged $49.95 anotated as "Courts Hoops." I have never know a customer make an internet order who did not have a working email address. In fact if the order confirmation was bounced I would not ship. I do appreciated the warnings however.

Michael

I've been using DHL for international shipments for 25 years. They always knew how to get stuff through the customs bureaucracy at the other end in a fraction of the time it took other companies.

They are not as reliable as they used to be though.

I had to get my original contract signature to a European law firm as quickly as possible two years ago. To be on the safe side, I sent originals via DHL, Global Priority Mail, and regular Air Express Mail.

The Global Priority Mail got there in two days for less than $5.

The regular Express Mail got there in three days for about $30.

The DHL package got there in two weeks for $65, with useless tracking information during this time.

(I did get a refund of course, and found from talking to an overseas employee that they had mistakenly sent the package to some remote arctic place (north of the arctic circle).

DHL also has a special U.S. domestic shipping program that is meaningful for frequent shippers.

I'm about to look into it for my own business use after seeing some corporate ads and receiving packages from several large vendors through DHL, when cost was critical (they work together with the US Postal Service, shipping packages via DHL to the USPS drop point closest to the customer).