OT: I need some microphone system recommendations please

brightmonkey wrote on 9/8/2004, 10:18 AM

Hello all,

I posted this question in the audio forum as well, but we all know the video forum is where the real action is. For those of you that read both forums, I apologize for the duplication.

I'm going to be doing some on-camera interviews, and I need a microphone system that consists of two microphones and a receiver that will accomodate both of them at once.

One of the microphones definitely needs to be a wireless lav, while the other can be another wireless lav or a corded handheld.

I also need the abilitity to monitor the audio via headphones.

Can anyone offer suggestions on a system that will do what I need without breaking the bank? This is an indy project and I'm on a shoestring budget, so the cheaper the better. Of course I don't want it to be so cheap that it sounds like crap, but I'm hoping there's a decent balance available. Any recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mario

Comments

FuTz wrote on 9/8/2004, 10:54 AM
Interviews while walking? Outside or indoors? Outside: in the country or downtown Manhattan? Indoors: in well furnished rooms or in an empty basement? Have you got a person that could boom those interviews if it's "walking interviews" ? Will the subject hold the mic him-herself?
Concerning mixers: some have to be plugged in a wall, others use batteries...
So many possibilities, just tell us a little bit more about the project :)
brightmonkey wrote on 9/8/2004, 11:36 AM
Oops! I guess I should have been more specific. I will be conducting these interviews indoors, in a well furnished apartment. The interviewee and myself will be seated, and the interviewee will have the wireless lav. I will be off-camera, so whether or not the mic I use is wireless/wired or lav/handheld is not important to me. The most important factor to me right now is cost. Someone on the audio board mentioned a Shure mixer with a Seinheiser kit, which would total well over two thousand dollars. Ideally, I'd like a solution in the "few hundred dollars" range, if at all possible.
Thanks again for your help.

BrianStanding wrote on 9/8/2004, 12:12 PM
If your subject is sitting down, why do you want them to wear a wireless setup? Take a look at a good WIRED lavalliere. Better audio quality, less interference and much cheaper price than a wireless setup.

Sony ECM-44 and ECM-55 are industry standards for this sort of thing: the 44 is smaller and battery-powered; the 55 is a bit larger and phantom-powered. They also have somewhat different acoustic characteristics. Audio-Technica also makes some good lapel mikes.

Another option is to mount a shotgun or cardioid condenser mike on a mike stand just out of the frame, preferably pointing down from above the subject to avoid background noise.

For your microphone, you may want to use a similar mike to the one you're using for your subject to get a common "tone." If this isn't important for your application, then any decent vocal dynamic or condenser mike will do. I'm partial to the Electro Voice EV-635A (another news industry "standard"), but there are plenty of other options.

With the money you save, invest in a good console mixer with microphone-level ins and outs, like a Mackie 1202. That way you can monitor on headphones.

I would save the wireless setup for situations where your subject, the camera, or both are going to be moving around a lot.
brightmonkey wrote on 9/8/2004, 12:38 PM
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the great suggestions. I initially wanted wireless so there wouldn't be any wires showing in the shot, but after reading your post I realized that the subject will be sitting on a couch and it will be easy to hide the wires. Using the same type of mike for both our voices is also a great tip. Thinking about this some more, I realize that it probably isn't going to be practical for me to conduct the interview AND monitor the audio through headphones at the same time. I may have to get someone else to do the actual interview, which is no big deal. I'm still new at this game, so every project is a learning experience. The Mackie may be a bit more mixer than I need right now (twelve channels??), but I'll keep it in mind. Thanks again.
Mario
BrianStanding wrote on 9/8/2004, 1:07 PM
What kind of camera are you using? If you're using something like a PD-150 or another camera that has line-level audio inputs, there are lots of mixer options available to you: the Samson Mixpad series are tiny, cheap and decent.

If you're using a camera that only accepts mike-level inputs, you're stuck with something like the Mackie, or you might want to look at one of the Beachtek or Studio One XLR to 1/8 " adaptors. There are a lot of uses for a good mixer, I don't think you'll regret investing in one. Check out E-Bay for some good deals.

One final note: ask yourself (honestly!) whether you're a better interviewer or a better sound man. Which would you rather trust to someone else? I know if it were me, I'd rather hire a good sound man and do the interview myself, but your skills and comfort level may differ. Sound men often have their own gear, too, so it might save you money in the short term.
John_Cline wrote on 9/8/2004, 1:14 PM
Mario,

If your budget is really tight, you can look into mixers from Behringer. They are ridiculously inexpensive, but are of reasonably decent quality. The MX602a or the UB802 would work for your purposes and they're both well under $100 retail.

Behringer UB802

Behringer MX602a

You should record the two microphones onto independent audio channels on the camcorder so you can mix it in post as opposed to mixing it in the field. Do you have any idea which model camcorder you will be using?

John
brightmonkey wrote on 9/8/2004, 3:18 PM
Well, don't laugh, but the camera is a JVC GR-DVM75........Hey! I told you not to laugh!
I'm stuck with one crappy 1/8" microphone jack on the camera. I appreciate the fact that you guys are thinking big, but in reality I'm small potatoes. Currently my video production is nothing more than a fascinating hobby.

And to be honest, I am a better interviewer than sound guy, but since there is zero budget for this project other than what I can scrape together, I have to work the equipment since I can get someone else to ask the questions for free. Those Behringers look pretty sweet, I think I know what I want for Christmas now.

I may just pick up some el cheapo equipment for this project at the 'Shack and save up for some decent stuff down the line. After all, why use sirloin if I'm only going to make tacos?

FuTz wrote on 9/8/2004, 3:51 PM

Behringer is really not a bad idea for a cheap and decent mixer. You could also consider plugging two outputs to some tape recorder if your camera just has this 1/8 jack cause my bet is that it's got an automatic level input and you will have "pumping" audio if you go this way (is there a volume input on the cam? if not, it's probably automatic). Back yourself up this way so you don't end up with bad audio and zero solution.
The trick is to start both cam and tape recorder then go in front of the lens and identify the take number, etc and clap your hands in the picture so you can easily synchronize audio and video at editing (or simply make yourself a clap with pieces of wood).
Needless to say each time you stop video or audio you have to do the whole thing again so let the tape roll if it's just for a "quick fix"; don't stop recording unless it's necessary (to sum it up: limit your takes (or cuts) as much as you can so you have less "chunks" to synch after).

For microphone on a budget, maybe you could have a look at this Sennheiser system based on the K6 power supply that would allow you to choose the mic you want by simply screwing the appropriate mic on this socket: different cardioid mics, extreme shotgun or even a lavallier. It's not really really cheap but it sure is flexible. You could probably even rent one in some local audio shop to save costs in the short term and they usually rent a lil' cheaper than "standards" mics like MKH60 or 416.
For a fixed frame on the subject, I'd go with a stand and a mic over the head of the subject. Cardioid, pointing at the chest. The ME66 (+K6 or K6p) could do quite a nice job. The key there: control the environment; close the windows, unplug phone, cellular, fridge, computer, tv, radio,fans (ceiling or stand),AC,etc... so you don't have noises. And record a "room tone" to sweeten the cuts at editing.
John_Cline wrote on 9/8/2004, 4:06 PM
Radio Shack sells junk at a premium price. Go to a decent music store that has recording equipment instead.

John
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/8/2004, 4:34 PM
I'd get:
2 Audio Technica 831 mics. $99.00 brand new, usually around 50.00 used on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41466&item=2557817324&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

A pair of XLR to 3.5mm adapters. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=217589&is=REG

A Y adapter from Radio Shack that accepts 2 mono inputs to a stereo output.
This will give you one voice on each of 2 channels. (Dual mono)
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=274-375

XLR Cables to fit length. Boom. Done.
In Vegas, you'll split the two mono channels into two separate audio tracks, and use the right from one, left from the other. This gives you two independent, mono tracks to control each voice with.
riredale wrote on 9/8/2004, 9:45 PM
If you're just getting started and money is a factor, you can stick with 1/8" miniplug stuff and get the job done. I've run my mics over 50' with miniplug cabling and it sounds fine. For longer runs or in electrically noisy environments I assume that XLR cabling would be essential, not just desirable, but for many tasks my own experience says it's not necessary.

I have played around with a generic lapel omnidirectional microphone that I picked up at Fry's for $20. Sounds decent.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you can pay more to get a slightly better sound, but for a lot of stuff it makes little difference.
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/8/2004, 10:02 PM
50'???? Of High impedance???? Consider yourself VERY lucky, blessed, loved by the gods, and fortunate.
After 15" or so, depending on quality of cable, the noise induction from RF starts to creep into the very audible range. Anything longer than 30' feet, the noise is anywhere from 10% to 25% the volume of the original signal.
EMI is everywhere, and without that second, phased carrier, you run a severe, and likely risk of induction of noise. Modern cables make this less of a problem, but still is a huge problem. Even on a lucky day, I'd never take an unbalanced cable, even Mogami or Canare, longer than 20 feet.
Riredale, you're blessed!
riredale wrote on 9/9/2004, 2:12 PM
Thank you. My wife thinks so, too.

Three times I've recorded choirs in church settings where I've run the output from a Sony MS-908C back to my camera location on the center aisle. I used two 25' lengths of generic stereo cabling terminated with generic male and female miniplug connectors. I can't hear any difference between 50' and 2'. Next time I'll by using my new At822 stereo microphone, but am not expecting any different results.

Maybe it's the setting--not a lot of heavy electrically-noisy machinery in a church.
Randy Brown wrote on 9/9/2004, 4:28 PM
I'd agree with Spot, you must be blessed. If I ran that long of a run unbalanced (in any location) I'm pretty sure I'd get noticeable noise.
Randy
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/9/2004, 4:51 PM
Is it a mono mic? I'm just wondering if the TRS cable you're using is balancing. The cables for balanced are in there, just wondering if you're getting a balanced signal and just not anticipating it. Flourescent ballasts alone, or low voltage lighting will generate noise even over just a few feet.
In our studio, you'll not find one single unbalanced line, not even from a cassette deck to the patchbay, just for this reason.
Randy Brown wrote on 9/9/2004, 5:02 PM
Riredale said- "I used two 25' lengths of generic stereo cabling"
Spot said- "I'm just wondering if the TRS cable you're using is balancing"
I think you just solved the phenomenom Spot ( even though I thought the TRS had to be wired differently to actually balance the mono line).
Randy
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/9/2004, 5:11 PM
Usually, this is so. But, since it's a TRS source into a cam, who knows what's going on in the cam. It might be sending negative down the other line.
Weird things do happen, and it *IS* a church. :-)
rs170a wrote on 9/9/2004, 6:14 PM
...a system that will do what I need without breaking the bank?

Take the excellent suggestions here and rent the really good ($$$) gear for a day or two to do your interviews. It's a lot cheaper and it'll pay off in the long run with great audio.

Mike
brightmonkey wrote on 9/10/2004, 8:24 AM
I appreciate all the great advice and suggestions you guys have given me. I went ahead and ponied up the $60 for a Behringer Eurorack UB802. I figured it would come in handy to have a mixer of my own. I also decided to use one AT831b for the interviewee, and one as yet undetermined microphone on a stand for the interviewer.

For what it's worth, I did pay a visit to the local pro audio shop. As I expected, their selection was limited and what they did have was waaaaaay overpriced. They wanted $200 for the AT381B, which knocked my socks off. I said thanks....but no thanks. I'll keep an eye on ebay.

Thanks again for your help.

Mario