I have 3 Sony VX2000's that I use primarily for weddings. After initially being nervous about using LP mode, I changed my mind after hearing that others were using it with no issues.

I now use LP mode on all cameras, and each tape will playback in any of the VX2000's without a problem.

I have never recorded in LP mode, because of dropouts i just knew i would get. Never did test it, may have cost me a lot of tape money over the years. But, I will say over hundreds of tapes shot I have had 2 issues, one it was about 15 deg F , drop outs all over the place ,the other was a tape head problem. (Knock on wood ,have a shoot at 3).

Personally I see ZERO difference in terms of video quality or recorded errors and when I capture and edit I would have to check the tape to see which is which.

You won't see any quality difference because, unlike VHS tape, there isn't any. However, the signal to noise ratio is worse at the lower speed, so as the tape degrades with age, you will reach the point where you can no longer play the tape sooner with LP than you will with SP. Thus, for archival purposes, SP is better. Also, if you have a tape that is worn or damaged (if you re-use tapes), LP may give you more dropouts.

We shoot in SP if it will fit, but have no reservation bumping down to LP. So far...no in-house problems.

The only problems we've encountered is when you have to hand the footage over to someone else. Often, other machines will not have LP capability or may have trouble reading the tape.

Otherwise...it's not problem for us.

..the signal to noise ratio is worse at the lower speed, so as the tape degrades with age...
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If the s/n ratio is lower why wouldn't it be noticeable right away especially when blown up on a large screen television?

Normally I capture my tapes and don't play them again. The Master tapes are large DV masters transferred after rendering and those are recorded in SP.

John

I've shot maybe 100 miniDV tapes at LP, no issues. Sony was concerned about interoperability at the narrower track pitch, but I guess the concern has not been realized. No problems here with interchange with other cameras or TV station rack mount units.

That said, I'm sorry to be leaving the LP fold. I have a brand-new FX1 and will be shooting only in HDV mode from now on. SP is the only option for HDV, so I'm now going to have new issues when covering continuous performance longer than 1 hour...

Isn't the issue with the interchangeability due to the audio? Don't some cameras only record LP at 12-bit which some machines can't play?

Its not just audio, more often in my experience it's the video. I've had tapes come thru for transfering to DVD that were recorded in LP mode and occasionally we run into one that has issues with the video - usually a banding type effect.

--Scott

I don't think that LP is an option for HDV. At least it is not for my HVR-A1U.

j razz

"I don't think that LP is an option for HDV. At least it is not for my HVR-A1U."

That will suck when I eventually upgrade to HDV. LP's been a blessing for those long Catholic weddings that I do. Switching out tapes during a ceremony on all three cameras isn't an ideal situation.

If the s/n ratio is lower why wouldn't it be noticeable right away especially when blown up on a large screen television?

It has to do with the nature of digital vs. the nature of analog. Analog degrades "gracefully," meaning that as the signal declines, you begin to hear or see more background noise, but you still hear and see the main signal. By contrast, as the digital signal degrades, as long as a "1" can still be distinguished from a "0," the original audio and video will be recovered exactly, with no degradation. However, at the point where the 1 and 0 are no longer distinguishable, all hell breaks loose and everything is gone all at once. Thus, even with a degraded signal, the picture is going to be exactly, 100%, precisely, bit-for-bit identical to a stronger signal, but only until you arrive at that magic -- and pretty much unknowable -- point at which the 1s and 0s can no longer be distinguished one from the other.

Many people that archive to tape and to shiny discs worry a lot about this, because they believe they will wake up one morning to find that all their archives have crossed the threshold and are no longer playable. Fortunately, there are ways to see this coming, and there are ways to deal with it and still recover all the data, once it has happened. In terms of avoiding it, you can easily get equipment that reads the actual signal coming from the tape or disc, which is actually still an analog signal (everything is still analog -- there actually is no physical thing that is digital), and measure its strength. You do this on a periodic basis, and when that strength reaches some predetermined threshold, you copy your data/video/audio to new media.

Once the problem has occurred, you simply invest in better equipment to read it. As people here well know, in the analog realm, a better VCR can get a stronger signal off the exact same tape than can a cheap VCR. Similarly, a disc that can no longer play in a set-top player can typically still be read in computer DVD player, which has a better drive and better electronics. Of course, once you get to that point where the signal is almost gone, there are no guarantees, but generally you can recover some or all of the original.

Here's a thought.

Supposing if I've done something dumb and haven't enough time left while recording AND I can't get to slip in a new tape, would it be possible, feasible, acceptable if I could reset my tape to LP? I*f I've got my maths correct, the additional time would be a 1/3 of extra of what was left. Meaning another 3 mins on 9 mins, so that would be 12mins. If I had 3mins left I could get up to 4mins? Is that correct?

Has anybody else successfully done this? It could be a lifesaver?

Grazie

Thanks for the explanation John. It does seem however that for aquisition purposes LP is viable as long as the finished video is archived at SP on something like Large DV (which is how I do it). I suppose if I had to re-capture the original tapes for some reason down the road I might have a problem. Hasn't happened yet, but I suppose it could.
Honestly, the biggest drawback when I switched from analog to DV was the short recording time of the miniDV tapes. I almost didn't make the change because of that. Shooting theatre productions was a real problem until the 83 minute tapes came out because I wasn't making it to the intermission so I could switch tapes. I was outputting the camera to a deck which kind of defeated the purpose.

John

The nightmares begin in post and duplication. I can't tell you how many times I have had to have people bring in thier own cameras (or the cameras of whoever produced their work) because our decks won't read LP DV. The biggest offenders tend to be Canon and JVC cameras. We have an older Panasonic DVC PRO deck that won't even consider playing ANYTHING recorded in LP, and a couple of DSR-11s that will playback about 1/2 of the LP we throw at it (not bad considering the manual says it won't playback LP).

That said, my VX-2000 and Panasonic PV-DV953 seem to agree with each other alright.

... would it be possible, feasible, acceptable if I could reset my tape to LP? ... Has anybody else successfully done this? It could be a lifesaver.

Yup. Do it all the time. Like the other John, I shoot a lot of stage (ballet, etc.) and one hour often is not quite enough. I remember last year, I did all the recorded music for a performance, so I knew it was going to be exactly 56 minutes. I used the SP mode. Midway through the first act, I realized she had inserted a new number with additional music from last year's production, and hadn't told me. Whoops! The SP tape was not going to be enough. During a blackout, I thumbed over to the menu, changed from SP to LP and kept on chugging (my Sony has the tape in the bottom, so tape changes mean removal from tripod). Lifesaver? You bet!

Honestly, the biggest drawback when I switched from analog to DV was the short recording time of the miniDV tapes. I almost didn't make the change because of that. Shooting theatre productions was a real problem until the 83 minute tapes came out ...

I couldn't agree more. I always used full-sized S-VHS, and that two hours of recording always meant that I could just turn it on and let it crank. Even weddings, where you sometimes set up a camera behind the alter, unattended, and turn it on long before the service starts, so as not to distract, often has to crank for more than an hour. I've even used the 83 minute tapes at LP on a few occasions for unattended capture, although I don't recommend it as a NOP.

..We've recorded several tapes in the LP mode, & found that if you playback the tape in the same cam you recorded in, you're generally OK... the potential for dropouts increases in the LP mode though...
..the video quality is identical to SP mode...
..but don't expect every DV device to play it back correctly.. & as someone else said, some DV devices are'nt even designed to play LP mode tapes...

Only once had a tape snap in a VCR and it was one that the shooter had switched from SP to LP half way through. While shuttling the tape the deck just lost the plot and snapped the tape.

For myself I'll only ever shoot in DVCAM, DV has just too many dropouts. If I'm shooting something where I cannot change tapes every 40 minutes I'll use a 250 or 570 camera and D5 sized tapes to get 3 hours of recording time.

Sony are releasing HDV decks that take D5 sized tapes, should be here around June. There's some expectations of a Z1 variant that takes D5 sized tapes being announced around the same time, maybe at NAB 2006.

Sony never wanted to use 4mm tape, they knew it was dodgy. They wanted to use 8mm and a higher write speed / wider track but the rest of the DVC consortium knew that'd give them a huge advantaged and were stopped from building such gear for three years as part of the deal to let them be part of the consortium. Sony did eventually build what they wanted, known as Digital 8 but by then everyone was sold on the idea of tiny tapes, reliability be damned.

As a matter of interest, the original DVC spec also included DVC100HD (nothing to do with Panny). A consummer HiDef camera was envisaged 15 years ago. Double the write speed and number of heads of DV, I think gives 1 hour of HiDef on 8mm tape.

Bob.

How about using 83 minute tapes instead of LP?

Larry

83 minute tapes are all I use Panasonic ay-dvm83pq. I have never had one snap, break, or drop frames that I am aware of. They have done great for me and I do not regret using them.

I posted a thread a while back asking the same question and mainly got responses to the negative concerning the thinness of the tape, but again, I HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS and have probably been through well over a 100 tapes of that specific model.

j razz

........so tonight I went to shoot the third night of a musical I am doing and go right back to recording in SP mode again using my 83 minute Panasonic PQ tapes.............

John

If Sony had come out with an 8mm variant of the VX-2000, I would have snapped it up in a second. All of my college work was shot on a TRV-600 HI-8 and I always liked how sturdy the 8mm tapes felt. I don't think Sony even bothered marketing a 3 chip D8, though.

If Sony had come out with an 8mm variant of the VX-2000, I would have snapped it up in a second. All of my college work was shot on a TRV-600 HI-8 and I always liked how sturdy the 8mm tapes felt. I don't think Sony even bothered marketing a 3 chip D8, though.
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Instead Sony joined the shrink the CCD trend like the others did.

John