Bob, that DOES sound interesting . . a 3CCD D8 . .. interesting .. G

farss - "Technically for recording D8 I think you're supposed to use ME tape although MP seems to work OK."

Bob, this is actually not true. ME tapes are a holdover from the days of analog camcorders. They were designed to provide a better signal to noise ratio in the old analog recorders, which consequently provided a much cleaner and higher quality video signal. ME tapes are thinner, and less physically robust than MP tapes. Because they were more costly to manufacture, the extra cost translated into a higher cost for the consumer. Mini DV tapes were designed from the beginning to be as small and compact as possible. Since ME tapes can store data using a slightly smaller track width, the original designers of Mini DV chose it. This translated directly into a smaller overall camcorder. When Digital 8 (D8) was developed, backwards compatabillity between Video 8, and Hi 8 tapes, which were in use at that time, was desired. Thus was born the necessary feature to play older MP tapes. Remember, we are talking digital here. Signal to noise ratio, the one great advantage of ME tapes are absolutely worthless in the digital domain. The camera only needs one of 2 options, either a "1" or a "0". There is no in between. How pretty those "1"'s and "0"'s are written onto tape have absolutely no bearing on the quality of the signal. To answer the original posters question, I would say definitely not buy or use ME tapes on your D8 camcorder for several reasons:

1) The improved signal to noise ratio of the tape, (the whole reason to buy it in the first place), is absolutely worthless with Digital 8.
2) The tapes are more expensive, and most dealers and stores are unaware that it has no advantages in the digital world. Dealers and stores will still try to have you "buy off" on it's advantages, but don't believe them.
3) The MP tapes, as I understand it, are physically thicker, more robust and less prone to losing data over numerous rewrites and time. ME tapes, due to their thin-ness , and their occassional tempramental nature are more fragile than MP tapes.

BTW, all Mini DV tapes are made of ME and not MP. The reason is not due to the misconception of a higher quality recording, but simply due to the smaller format and consequently smaller camcorder, that ME allows.

So, end result, don't waste your money on ME tapes, it's not needed!

Hope this helped!

Actually I think you're correct, MP is a better formulation. As I recall the biggest problem with ME is that being a continuous metal film when bits come off they're big bits, think of the chrome flaking off an old bumper bar. With MP it's rare to get all the particles in one are to fall off together so the chances of loosing whole bits or bytes is much less.
Sorry if that isn't a very technical explaination.
Bob.

"Sorry if that isn't a very technical explaination." . .works for me! ;)

G

Because I occasionally get a customer who wants 8mm/Hi8 transferred to DVD, and I did not have an 8mm camcorder, I recently bought a D8 (TRV460).

It does the job, but I think a better solution (at twice the price) would have been to buy a good Hi8 camcorder and an ADVC-300.

Chief complaints about the 460 are the electronic image stabilization (shut it off if you want any sharpness), the touch screen LCD for controls (means you have to keep the LCD on all the time unless you want to run in full auto mode) and the lack of an s-video output.

Having said that, I think as a backup camera, locked down on a tripod, it could give a reasonable image. At $314, I did not expect miracles (and didn't get one).

Timely subject!

I've been given a big box full of Hi8 and D8 tapes to transfer to DVD (I over charged but they still want it done). I have an ADVC-300 but will be eBaying for a Sony D8 camcorder for my makeshift deck.

Can anyone suggest a good model? Looked at the 460 but there are so many (I want to stick with Sony).

Looking for quality first, then features.

Thanks!

-Jason

Ralph M: "It does the job, but I think a better solution (at twice the price) would have been to buy a good Hi8 camcorder and an ADVC-300."

This is something I have always wondered about - the quality of the internal A/D conversion versus a dedicated piece of hardware such as the -300 that does it. I can only comment on what I have read about this on the internet, and a lot of people say that the outputs are quite similar. One of the more important things to look for, if getting a D8, is to make sure it has DNR and a TBC. These 2 things alone will have a HUGE effect on the final output quality. Fortunately the vast majority of the Sony D8's, including the one I have has it. Can anyone who has both comment on the quality of the two methods of D/A conversion?

jsteelh:"Can anyone suggest a good model? Looked at the 460 but there are so many (I want to stick with Sony)."

Yes, here are my thoughts on the subject. Unfortunately if you are talking new models, there is not much to choose from. Sony is the last company still making D8's, and they only make 2 of them. Since the D8 is a virtually dead format, there is not a lot to choose from, and both of them are about the quality you could expect for a sub $500 (U.S.) camcorder. The quality is not the best. If you are looking for the top of the line in D8, unfortunately you have to go back a few years. The two best, and highest quality D8's ever made by Sony are both the DCR-TRV740 and DCR-TRV840 models. There are only slight differences between the two with the largest being the 840 had a larger LCD screen. Sony, unfortunately discontinued making these, but you might still be able to find new ones on E-bay. As late as last year, I remember seeing new ones for sale there. BTW, I have the 740 model and I am extremely pleased with it. Due to it's scarcity now, I have relegated it to strictly as a digital/analog converter. I have a newer Mini DV that I actually use to shoot with. I can tell you that the 740 does an outstanding job of digitizing my analog 8 tapes! As far as I can tell, the digitized result is indisguishable from the original.

So, if you want a good solid quality D8, you are going to either have to buy a used one, or find an unopened one on E-bay! Yes, I am in the small minority that wishes Sony wouldn't discontinue the D8 line. Unfortunately, I think it's a little too late now! Yes, Bob, I too would buy a 3 CCD D8, if that ever came out!

ALl save yourself alot of money and buy a TRV340 on ebay

1) It has TBC and locks the audio pretty darn good on hi-8 to digital.
2) It is relatively inexepensive
3) It has passthru
4) Lux rating is not bad

I have 4 TRV140's, 2 TRV340's and 2 TRV740's.

All digital 8 , shoot for weddings and I will match them all against 3 ccd camera's anytime. Why ? Because of what is produced. I have never seen nayone go up and count pixels and on 99 % of tv's, you will never see the diffeence UNLESS they are such an afficianado thgat why did they hire someone anyway...LOL

GO DIGITAL 8

Sony also make a D8 VCR but as has been said you can buy a new camera for less although the VCR is more convenient to use.
I cannot see much advantage in playing Hi8 tapes out of a D8 system or playing them out of a Hi8 VCR into the 300, most Hi8 tapes should be in good condition so you want have as many problems as you have with VHS. Now that I wave the 300 it gets a lot of use simply becuase it takes up less space and it's easier to get the connections in and out of it. I sure wouldn't suggest anyone buy the 300 if they had a D8 camera/VCR and only had a few tapes to do.
Bob.

OK, at the store, I saw HMP tapes, and MP. I bought the MP's. Was this the right decision?

It should be fine although I stick to the Sony stuff labelled Digital 8 although I've had no problem using any 8mm formulation.
Bob.

Didn't tfc's entire post debunk that though? That I shouldn't be using the Digital 8 tapes?

DaddyLongLegs: "
Didn't tfc's entire post debunk that though? That I shouldn't be using the Digital 8 tapes?"

It's not so much that you SHOULDN'T be using them, it's just that there is no need to! There is absolutely no difference in the actual physical tape of Hi-8 vs. Digital 8 tape! They are both interchangeable. If you don't believe me, try a little experiment. If you have both an analog Hi-8 camcorder and a Digital 8 camcorder, use both tapes in each one and look at the picture. Both tapes are interchangeable in the other one! It's simply a nice marketing jab by the companies in order to entice a little more money out of the unsuspecting public. To summarize, you can use ANY kind of 8 anything tape, they are all equal and all produce the same quality output on a Digital 8 camcorder. You will notice absolutely no difference in the quality of the picture. Remember it's digital. It either works or it doesn't - there is NO in between. My whole point is that there is no need to waste extra money or time to get a specific kind of tape for D8, whether it be Metal Evaportated (ME) or the so-called Digital 8 tape. They are all equal. You might as well save your money!

Awesome, and according to you the normal 8 tapes produce the least drop outs, right?

DaddyLongLegs: "Awesome, and according to you the normal 8 tapes produce the least drop outs, right?"

Well, you shouldn't have any really. I would suspect that MIGHT be a problem ONLY if you plan on using ME tapes numerous times over and over again, or if you planned on putting heavy wear on them from continuous viewing. This MIGHT cause some of the metal flakes to fall off like Bob was talking about earlier. Like I previously posted, the ME tapes are a bit more fragile than MP ones. For one time or short time use, the ME tapes should have zero drop outs. I can't say the same would hold true 20 years from now however. I can tell you though, that I still am able to view in perfect quality ME Hi-8 tapes that I shot from 1993. They apparently have no degredation....yet! It will be interesting to see if they will be viewable in another 20 years. No worries, though, as I have already transferred them to MP tape via my D8 camcorder.

I've found (in the US) that Hi8 and Digital8 tapes are the same tape formulation with one possibly major difference. While the wrapper on many of the Hi8 tapes note the Digital8 duration (ex. Hi8: 120min - Digital8: 60min) I've only found Sony brand tapes that say they are Digital8 in the biggest prominent type on the packaging are always 90 minutes tapes. The longer load is why they are more expensive. I've used these tapes and while useful in a situation that requires more than 60 minutes without a load change the "thinner" tape can easily jam, stretch or krinkle when it becomes warm inside the camera. If you need the longer length and an extra $5 isn't an issue then use them...with care.

The only reason I stick with the Sony branded D8 stock is I can get it cheaper and easier than the MP stuff as we buy the D8 stuff in bulk to resell. That and at the end of the day I never base my tape purchase, at least not camera tape, on cost, if it's worth shooting the cost of tape is a very low priority. Doesn't apply to D8 so don't let me confuse the issue but it sure does to MiniDV tapes.

As tfc said being digital basically it either plays or it doesn't.
I do seem to recall something though about head wear and MP versus ME tapes, I think some of the DVCPRO kit will spit out one or the other if you try to use it. Sorry can't be more specific.

Bob.

I've been lucky - I've used D8, Hi-8, Video8, and 8mm computer backup tapes from several brands in my Digital 8 machines and never had a problem. I say get a couple of whatever's cheapest, and if it's reliable for you, there's your brand.

As for quality, the D8s aren't bad - I have a 110, 120, 320, and 140. I will get another 140, because it's the only one that gives any quality difference to the others - it is better in low light. Other than that, they're all the same - not great, but good for a cheap digital, and GREAT for the <$200 I'm getting them for on eBay. Problem is, the 140 doesn't do Video8/Hi8 playback or analog passthru. I'd considered the 730, but didn't care about stills and didn't like the decrease in CCD size.