OT: New HDV Camera Purchase

mjroddy wrote on 3/20/2006, 10:41 AM
I am in need of 2 HDV cameras: one for me (my freelance work) and one for my place of proper employment (a cable company).
I was told by a very reputable sourse to, "Wait until March."
I'm pretty much ready to make my purchase now, so my question is: Assuming I CAN wait until after NAB, should I?
I mean, my two choices (as I see it now) are either the Sony Z1U or, for twice the cost, the Cannon XL-H1.
Is there anything else I should be considering (I know about the Panny, but feel the Sony and Cannon cameras are SLIGHTLY better in some ways that matter to ME)? Should I wait? Is there a place I should be reading about the possibilities?
Thanks for your advice!

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 3/20/2006, 10:47 AM
This is almost identical to the discussion taking place in this current thread:

Camera

If you do a search on "camera" in the subject line, you'll find dozens of fairly recent threads. Here's one that links to reviews and comparisons of some of the cameras you mention:

Four affordable HD cameras compared

Spot|DSE wrote on 3/20/2006, 10:56 AM
There is no way, shape, nor form that the Panny is "better" than your Z1. Marketing claims say otherwise, but it just ain't true. Having the HVX, I can tell you it's a BEAR to key with. We shot Z1, A1, and HVX simultaneously at various frame rates, exposures, and HVX at various resolutions, and even the A1 pulls a better key than anything the HVX has to offer. I'm working on an article that isn't a shootout, just HVX vs HDV in general, because that's where all the hype for the past year has been aimed.
HVX is a well appointed, well designed camera. GREAT feature set. But after spending quite a bit of time with it, it's like owning an Indy race car with a 6 cylinder engine in it. Scaling both horizontally and vertically, it doesn't work so well. Outside of compositing, it's not at all a bad camera, but certainly isn't the answer to all prayers as hyped for so long. Someone on the DVInfo.net forum commented "I was sold a racehorse, but ended up with a donkey. A damn fine donkey it is, but still isn't a contender for the Kentucky Derby."

What I think you're alluding to/was anticipated for March was the XDCAM HD FW300, which is a fabulous offering for HD production. It's triple the cost of a Z1, but goes to 35Mbps VBR, and is stunning.
Once they start shipping, I'll upload some footage for you to play with, but Vegas doesn't currently support XDCAM HD, so it must be converted first.
Of the current offerings, the Canon is the best of the lot, but at double the cost, I don't believe it's worth double the cost, UNLESS you'll be working in-studio, HD/SDI output to a BMD card or Wafian, at which point you get a 1440 x 1080 stream resolved to 1920 x 1080 4:2:2 stream which is gorgeous.
Overall, the image is slightly sharper than the Z1, but is noisier than the Z1, so that too, needs to be taken into account. The JVC is a great cam if you're working in very well lit areas, if you don't mind upscaling 720p to 1080 in some format/fashion, etc. We just added another Z1 to our arsenal, if that's any indication of what we think of them here. We have the XL H1 too, and the JVC. All are great cams. But buck for buck...Z1 is still the winner, IMO.
And if you're considering the Canon, just remember that for another 3/4K, you can have the 1/2 XDCAM HD, which is a LOT more camera than any of the HDV offerings. And it shoots a 25Mbps stream if that's what you want, but because it's tapeless, it cannot be called "HDV." The 300 and 350 simply blow my mind when you look at the quality for dollar aspect. The only other cam I'm excited about right now is the new Grass Valley Infinity series, and those are looking sweet too. But they're mpeg 4, which may or may not be a limiting factor. Early tests are impressive, but difficult to work with. They'll have an impressive showing at NAB.
mjroddy wrote on 3/20/2006, 11:23 AM
John, thanks... I should have looked deeper.
Mr DSE, I edited my msg above to reflect my thought better. I specifically meant that I was NOT considering the Panny.

"UNLESS you'll be working in-studio, HD/SDI output to a BMD card or Wafian, at which point you get a 1440 x 1080 stream resolved to 1920 x 1080 4:2:2 stream which is gorgeous."

This is a serious consideration for me and, combined with the great resolution and removable lens is the main reasion I'm considering the XL-H1.

Thanks very much. I'd better go look at the Camera link.
craftech wrote on 3/20/2006, 11:59 AM
If the "wait until March" statement is because there may be newer and better cameras to consider you really won't be in a better position than you are now because it takes awhile before users have a chance to work with the new cameras. Any feedback you get will be in the form of reviews which as Doug pointed out aren't a real substitute for long term use (or even relatively short term use for that matter).

I would go for one of the current models now based upon feedback from other videographers.

John
Coursedesign wrote on 3/20/2006, 12:19 PM
Spot,

Thanks for a very good clarification of these models.

I'm also looking forward to the new XDCAM HD cameras, but hadn't seen anything about a model that would be only $3-4K more than a Canon XL-H1, i.e. $12-13K including a lens.

I'm also interested in the Grass Valley Infinity, but like with any other new camera (especially an expensive one), I really want other people to try it out first.

I like that it shoots JPEG2000 though, this IMHO is ideal for maximum quality and ease of post work afterwards.
Spot|DSE wrote on 3/20/2006, 1:07 PM
Course, the retail on the 300 is 16k, but it'll street somewhat less, like mid to upper 13K range. Some folks are lobbying hard to be able to buy the cam sans lens, and that would drop the price considerably as well.
The Infinity smokes. That's all that can be said til NAB, but it smokes. J2K is wonderful, and probably the only format that can compete with CineForm for wavelet, quality, speed, and scalability.
rextilleon wrote on 3/20/2006, 1:28 PM
Doug, I was under the impression that the 300 price of 16K was just for the body? Then I thought you had to put a pretty good piece of glass on it in order to take advantage of the format. Correct me if I am wrong.
mjroddy wrote on 3/20/2006, 5:43 PM
Mr Douglas,
Why do you emphasize that the XL-H1 is a "good studio camera, but not good for the field?" Too much noise in a field environment? ALmost ALL of what I shoot is in the field. I was thinking on getting a good laptop and, if they make 'em, a Black Magic card (or similar) and ingesting HDSDI.
Is this a bad idea?
Is HDV on tape just a better solution for the mass market?
Spot|DSE wrote on 3/20/2006, 7:18 PM
Currently, there is no way to capture SDI in the field that I'm aware of, and that's where the major strength of the Canon lies. In HDV, it's not 5K better than any of the other 3 offerings, IMO. If someone like Wafian comes up with a field-portable device that records SDI to J2K, or something like that....it would be HUGE. But not likely anytime soon.
The other consideration is in the field, you often don't have wonderful light, and nothing yet has beat the Sony's for low noise in low light.