OT: "Own it forever..buy it today"

Comments

filmy wrote on 11/30/2005, 1:14 PM
>>>Maybe they'll figure out a way to make a DVD or CD force you to go to a website and 'agree' or 'disagree' before it will work.<<<

In a sense this has already happened - anyone here own the T-2 DVD that came witht he bonus HD-WMV version of the film? I do - and I have never watched it because the first time I tried to it told me I had to install software on the DVD and than have internet access so it could download a DRM for the film.
p@mast3rs wrote on 11/30/2005, 1:21 PM
Well is that not what they are planning on doing with the upcoming Blu Ray/HD-DVD players in requiring that they be connected to the internet?

Sadly, I think I am beginning to see more through the eyes of the pirates than I would have ever expected. Still don;t think its right but I identify with them more now than ever.
deusx wrote on 11/30/2005, 10:38 PM
This is much simpler than it's made out to be.

The creator/owner has the right to decide what and how his/her product/art is distributed, what protection scheme, if any, to include.

You don't like it, simply do not buy it. Not liking it doesn't give us the right to pirate. And what about people who rationalize stealing music because prices of CDs are too high? Following that analogy I should be stealing just about everything I see on 5th avenue. I should just walk into a 4 star restaurant and grab all the food I can get and run out? After all how dare they charge $25 for a plate of pasta we can make at home for less than $5.

We are in this situation because these things like music and movies can be copied easily and therefore are treated differently from other goods, but in reality they should be treated just the same as things that cannot be copied ( like books,food, cars, clothes, and so on ).

Therefore stealing digital content is the same as stealing a book, a car or anything else and should be punishable equally.

It really is that simple. Don't like it, don't buy it. End of story.
Considering most content produced today, you really won't lose much by not watching or listening to it. You will actually gain valuable time that could be used in much better ways.

If I buy a leather jacket. I own it forever, providing I take care of it. If I rip it, maybe it can be repaired, maybe not wearable any more. Nobody would think of going back to the store and demanding a new one. Same with DVDs. There is absolutelly no difference.


B.Verlik wrote on 12/1/2005, 12:41 AM
The trouble is, it's only the innocent that suffer because of this. Pirates always figure out how to steal and sell this stuff no matter what.
filmy wrote on 12/1/2005, 4:40 AM
>>>You don't like it, simply do not buy it. Not liking it doesn't give us the right to pirate. And what about people who rationalize stealing music because prices of CDs are too high? Following that analogy I should be stealing just about everything I see on 5th avenue. I should just walk into a 4 star restaurant and grab all the food I can get and run out? After all how dare they charge $25 for a plate of pasta we can make at home for less than $5.<<<

I think you are misisng the main point of the thread - no one is saying that the average comsumer should "steal" and frankly if you asked if walking into a 4 star restaurant and grabing all the food they can get and run out is tealing they will say yes and most probably will not ever do that. However the point here in the thread was not about "stealing", it was more about the avegrage consumer buying something and think that because they bought it they "own" it - the same as a car, a house, a toy or a $25 plate of pasta. (Ok - sick thought/analogy here - you go buy your $25 plate of pasta and eat it and enjoy it. Now at a later time nature takes its course and you have to...um...dispose of that pasta. When you do a lawyer shows up at your door because the resturant who sold you that pasta is saying you are illegally distributing it.) But the reality is that when you buy a music CD or Video/DVD you are not really buying it to "own" - you are just sort of paying for the media, while you can do what you want with the media you cannot do whatever you want with what is on it - but most people do not get that.

>>>It really is that simple. Don't like it, don't buy it. End of story.<<<

And that is the next step of the point - the people we are talking about here *do* like it and that is *why* they buy it and, more than likely, what leads to the next step - the awful "criminal" act of taking something they like so much and "sharing" it with friends by playing the DVD or CD for them. They may even love it so much they take a song and play it at a wedding or an anniversy party or other large gathering of people. Maybe they learn it and enter a talent show and sing it at the talent show or even, in the worst thing they could do, use their favorite song on a home video they are sending out to family. What deusx is saying is that these people are all theives, and knowing ones at that. The same thing that lawyers might say - going back to my earlier post that says not knowing the law is no excuse for breaking it.

I still disagree with the concept that consumers who do these things are knowingly breaking the law.
apit34356 wrote on 12/1/2005, 6:22 AM
"ownership of product" should be replaced with "you may have limited use of this product and this product is a service totally controlled by provider of services, please read enclosed book on your legal limitations of use" .
deusx wrote on 12/1/2005, 11:17 AM
>>>>But the reality is that when you buy a music CD or Video/DVD you are not really buying it to "own" - you are just sort of paying for the media, while you can do what you want with the media you cannot do whatever you want with what is on it - but most people do not get that. <<<<

It's the same with other things. You buy a hammer, you can't legally use it to break into somebody's house. You buy a car, can't really use it to run people over and so on. Restrictions apply everywhere.

The bottom line is you buy a DVD to watch it, and you can watch it / own it forever. If the publisher decided you couldn't copy it then that is the restriction you have to live with, or decide not to buy the product.

Another problem is that people equate sharing with friends and the old VHS copying analogy with today's situation. They are not similar in any way. Giving/sharing a few tapes with friends ( although technically illegal ) is nowhere near to what we have today, where anybody can "share" with millions of people with a couple of mouse clicks. And they do it for profit. They get other songs or movies from other "friends" they never met over the web. This is without a doubt a criminal issue, and people have to understand that. Just because actual money isn't being exchanged it doesn't mean profits are not being made ( they are profiting by using somebody elses intellectual property/content to obtain whatever else is being "shared" ). So it shouldn't surprise us that corporations are trying to protect their income.

I predicted years ago that they'd go after individual users, and people were laughing at my statement. I also predicted a big mess and severe restrictions. Corporations and governments still own the internet itself ( whether we like to believe it or not ). Things could get much, much worse in the not so distant future.

And yes, people know about this. That FBI warning about up to 5 years in prison and $250 000 fine, the one everybody used to laught at, has been on display for years, long before the internet, on every single tape you used to buy/rent.



filmy wrote on 12/1/2005, 1:18 PM
deusx I can see where this thread is heading so lets not go down that road - try to come back to the actual topic which was *not* about file sharing and *not* about people using peer to peer systems.

Your comment's are not even close to the topic - remember the thread topic is "Own it forever..buy it today" and not "Buy a car, Run people over." Marketing of music or DVD's where people feel like they can do whatever they want because they "own" it is a great topic. Because of things like file sharing it can be thought of as "Well I own it" but I would still argue that most advertisments do not say "buy it today, file share it tommorrow" and that is part of this threads concept - that when you buy something 99.9% of average people think they "own" it and following that concept is the "restriction you have to live with", and that is based on that object - and it is implied by it's marketing in many cases. I am thinking you are either tolling or you are missing the core of this thread based on your responses.

You maintain that people know they are breaking the law because of That FBI warning about up to 5 years in prison and $250 000 fine, the one everybody used to laught at, has been on display for years, long before the internet, on every single tape you used to buy/rent. But that is, again, not really the issue of the thread here because it is based on marketing. If I buy a DVD I feel like I can show that DVD to my family. I would also think if friends of the family come over they too could watch it, by sitting in my home and watching it on my equipment. Maybe there is a party at my house so I pop in the DVD. The FBI warning you mention doesn't say I cann't do this...matter of fact it does not even say I can't take it down to another friends house and watch it there. Nor does it say I can't bring to the youth center and show it to a youth group. What most of the FBI warnings say is that you can make copies. Heck...doesn't say I can't re-edit what is on the DVD either, or use parts of it for a presentaion. Maybe I want to take sound bites and use them as replacements for my desktop sounds or use on my answering machine - it doesn't really say I can't do that either.

I can buy a book and read it and let as many people read it as what to. I can even sit in public and read out loud. I can sit in my house and crank up a CD as loud as I want to and people could hear it outside. Now with in car DVD players I can pop in any DVD and drive down the road where any other passing vehicle can look inside and catch a glimpse of it. I can buy a hammer and build a house, tear down a house, smash a window, smash my hand or tenderize meat. I can buy a car and tear it apart, rebuild it, repaint it, customize it in anyway I want to and publicy display it and resell it. The are just things that people freely do when they "own" something.

i work in this industry and I know that I can not "own" a movie that I get in a video store and I also know that I can not legaly take the and recut it, remix it, copy it off and charge people to look at it or buy it. There was a time whem the avergae person did not have to worry about doing that however now pretty much anyone of any age can do that thusly I fully agree that how entertainment is marketed to joe average might need to be rethought because I can go out in the town I live in and ask any number of people if they can loan me a copy of one of their DVD's to show at the high school and my guess is 99.9% of them would say "Sure". Why? because they "own" the DVD. Ask the same people if I could borrow their car, theire house, their wife...oh, wait...never mind that last one. But you get the idea I would hope. Now ask the same people about "file sharing" and a much lower % would say yes because it is such a news "buzz word" anymore. And this goes back to the idea of how somehting is marketed - DVD's are marketed to watch, to buy and to own. I think it is Disney who tell consumers to "own it now" so you can either "share it with your family" or "make the magic last forever". Yeah, we get the idea but at what point do the Disney folk come to your door to take a head count of just how many people you are "Sharing" it with? Is 5 too many? How about 50? Do things like weddings count as a normal circle of "family and friends"? How about holiday gatherings or family reunions? What is the real difference between a youth group of 10 kids sitting in a teen center watching a film or the same 10 kids sitting over at someones house?
Orcatek wrote on 12/1/2005, 2:42 PM
Funny, most of my DVD start with a statement that says:
Not licensed for public exhibition or commercial use.

So your youth center use of the DVD is probably not within the license.

Funny thing is, rental is not covered as allowed either, but the ones you rent still have that message. I've always wondered about that one. I've rented several that have actually stated they couldn't be rented at Hollywood video.

filmy wrote on 12/1/2005, 3:15 PM
>>> Funny, most of my DVD start with a statement that says:<<<

Oh sheesh - sometimes I forget when we get into threads like these every little things needs to be put out there. Typical FBI Warning (since 2004) found on most USA video releases:

Warning: The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000.

This is what, according to the post I responded to, makes "everyone" aware they can not "own" the DVD/Video nor can they show it in public or charge any sort of admission. At face value all this says is "do not copy this for any reason and do not copy than give away, even for free".

Thusly, based on said FBI warning, one could still show it to friends, family and others. A lawyer could very well come in and say that "distribution" means *any* form of viewing outside of the home of the person who purchased it - a car? a portable DVD player used outside of the home? Laptop? I don't think most conusmers think about it that way - so I *still* say the FBI warning does nothing to make the average person more aware of their "ownership" rights when it comes to viewing and/or showing the program.

Now - as for the other discalimers that may, or may nor be, on videos and DVD's. yes some have a disclaimer that says:

The motion picture contained in this videodisc (videotape) is protected under the copyright laws of the United States and other countries. This disc (tape) is sold for home use only and all other rights are expressly reserved by the copyright owner of such motion pictures. Any copying of public performance of such motion picture is strictly prohibited and may subject the offender to civil liablility and severe criminal penalties. (Title 17, United States Code. Section 601 and 606)

(FYI - that section is:

SEC. 606. INFRINGEMENT ACTIONS. )

However I can say that not all my videos and/or DVD's have a warning that says this.

And yes, the whole video rental business is another issue alltogether and the VSDA is pretty big on that sort of stuff. It was re-worked to fall under the whole "first sale" concept. I can buy a tape as well and rent it and I can sell it after that. However, in theory, I am not allowed to go out and buy used copies and than sell and/or rent tham as "new" - however there is a very good secondary market for these things. "prvioulsy viewed copies" are bought up and re-sold all the time by brokers.
Chienworks wrote on 12/1/2005, 4:19 PM
When i was working in a video rental store i found out that we weren't allowed to buy our stock retail. We had contracts with the distribution companies to buy tapes directly from them and paid anywhere from 2 to 4 times retail price. This extra amount covered our license to rent the tapes out.

Not sure if that's still the case today though, or how many stores actually followed that policy.
filmy wrote on 12/2/2005, 7:44 AM
>>>When i was working in a video rental store i found out that we weren't allowed to buy our stock retail. We had contracts with the distribution companies to buy tapes directly from them and paid anywhere from 2 to 4 times retail price. This extra amount covered our license to rent the tapes out.

Not sure if that's still the case today though, or how many stores actually followed that policy.<<<

It is, but because DVD's are never really priced for rental the prices are almost always the same as retail. Kelly brings up a good point here as well - many video stores used to require the cunsumer to place a deposit before they could rent. If a tape did get messed up and the cunsumer had to buy it they would be charged the rental buy price which was much higher the sell through. Consumers did not understand why they could go into a store and pick up a tape for maybe $19.95 but if they had to buy if from a rental store it would cost $150.00. The added fees were in place to cover certian costs allowing for rental. In return studio promised windows - things like no PPV for 30 days. No cable for 90 days. No broadcast for 12 months. This would assure the store that the only place people could see this film was buy renting it from them. probelm is now that windows have gotten shorter and most product comes out at the same time. Also chains often sell product to consumers cheaper than distributors sell to stores so mnore sotre are just going to places like Wal Mart for single units and Sams Club/Costco for multiple units. You also have places like NetFlix which take a huge chunk out of brick and mortor places.
deusx wrote on 12/2/2005, 10:49 PM
>>"Own it forever..buy it today<<

I am right on topic actually. I'm just explaining why companies resort to these measures ( because of file sharing and people who don't really care whether they steal or not, as long as it's free they'll do it ).

All advertising is basically false advertising, this one actually less than most, because you buy a DVD and you do own it forever, One would have to be completely retarded to thing they actually somehow owned the rights to the movie or the movie itself, just because they bought the DVD. So, people do know. They can invite friends over, lend it to them and so on, that has been going on for years and nobody cared. File "sharing" is the issue and the only reason for all these ridiculous restrictions, because as I said a few clicks and millions can have it for free. That is a lot different than a group of boyscouts watching a movie at mom's house.

What number of people can borrow your DVD? can you copy one, two, three?? give to a friend, what is the acceptable number.?That's also easy to answer. It is whatever the owner of the content decides it is.

If I make a movie and say you can only watch it while standing on one leg, humming a showtune and slapping yourself on the face with a lobster, then that is the way it is. If you don't agree with my ridiculous requirements/restrictions, do not support me and do not buy my movie, but don't steal it either. End of story.

Same with this topic, you buy, you own forever, just like it says, but with restrictions imposed upon you by the owner of that particular content.
Steve Mann wrote on 12/2/2005, 11:30 PM
"Well is that not what they are planning on doing with the upcoming Blu Ray/HD-DVD players in requiring that they be connected to the internet?"

Oh, it's even worse than that.
The HD-DVD v Blu-Ray "war" is all about content control. HD-DVD is far cheaper to produce and could be putting media on the shelves next week, but the studios like Blu Ray for the total control they gain over the content.

Here's what Blu-Ray gives the studios:
The ability to limit the number of play times.
The ability to limit playback on a single device only

Hollywood, Inc. is about to step into the tar pits with this one.