If you don't have the technical knowledge (or common sense) to run a PC, go with Mac. I've run PCs, Macs, and Linux boxes for decades. Linux has been FAR away the most reliable, PC and Mac, I've had equal luck, it's just that I've upgraded components on the PCs much more often. From what I've seen, the flexibility and the number of options, both hardware and software, for PC is what causes most of the "problems", "operator error" not the machine or OS. I like computers, no matter what name they have on them.

For many media professionals today, it is quite helpful to work on both platforms, because it is so common to have to work with other people who work on either platform.

Why hate any platforms?

Win XP and OS X are both as close to rock solid as anyone could reasonably ask for, and they both have wide application support. The rest is details.

We are all here on this forum because we love Vegas, because it is uniquely fast to work with, it is uniquely scriptable, and it is just plain damn nice to work with because of its unique editing paradigm.

Now just because Vegas is our favorite editing tool, shouldn't mean that we can't use any other tool when another tool would be clearly more efficient.

Or are you saying that you can't use After Effects, because Vegas is also a compositor?

Or you could never use a third party color corrector, because Vegas has built-in color correction, and it would be sacrilege not to use it?

Or if Walter Murch sends you some clips for your feedback, do you return them with a note saying, "Don't bother contacting me unless you can send me Vegas files on a proper Windows disk!"?

The production world is both PC and Mac. If you only want to play in one corner, that's fine too.

I've thought about buying a Mac and doing a dual boot etc..., but I'll tell you this right now. I've not seen a good track record on recent mac machines. My cousin (who has money to burn) decided to try getting a mac and see how much "better" it was. He likes the interface and using it browsing etc... So then all of a sudden there's a problem with the display in his mac laptop, so he has to send it back, he gets it back and then there is another problem with his laptop, so he has to send it back again. He tried getting a smaller cheaper laptop to see if that was any different. Nope had to send that in for some problem too. Then he bought a desktop... guess... He has had a 4/3 failure rate with macs in the hardware department. What we're seeing here, is Apple had a good name for solid hardware/software. But then in order to finance his expanding empire, Steve Jobs became a sell out. They are now selling on name, and not backing it up with quality hardware like they used to. My cousins machines were not anywhere near cheap (except for his simple laptop), and still they crapped out all the same, in fact the most expensive one crapped out twice!

I like OSX just fine (in fact the similarities between Windows and Mac are getting fewer and fewer.

But in the words of adult swim's text comments,

"Someone asked what OS we run our servers on. We are running our servers on Windows server edition 2003... (BSOD pops up); We use macs because they just work (music is looping and the pinwheel of death is spinning to beat the band); #@(% it! We're using Linux"

there's my .02

Dave

Dave,

It may be that your cousin should avoid walking under ladders for a while.

A highly respected annual University of Michigan ACSI study published yesterday showed "Apple was the only company that received high marks for both [manufacturing] quality and support."

Still, they did have problems with early MacBooks, and with some early MacBook Pros (although not the slightest with mine, even though I got one from the first batch), etc. Their warranties are good, and I like that you can wait to extend the warranty until just before the expiration of the warranty. Note also that the extended warranties cost less than on the PC side also, at least in my comparisons (not that I would recommend anyone to get that for anything but a notebook anyway).

I certainly recommend to be cautious with every Rev. A product from Apple, perhaps even more so than with products from the other manufacturers. Why? Because they stick their necks out a bit farther than the me-too manufacturers, trying to get as close to the limit as humanly possible.

Like in auto racing, sometimes the quest for "driving at 9/10" (~the optimum speed on a race track course) becomes "driving at 1001/1000" instead, which leads to some problem before it's fixed.

Still, as yesterday's ACSI study indicated, this is rare.

So damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

:O)

>>>A highly respected annual University of Michigan ACSI study published yesterday showed "Apple was the only company that received high marks for both [manufacturing] quality and support."<<<

that doesn't prove that apple manufactures quality or provide good support. That proves something we all already knew; Apple fans are delusional.

My experience with macs has been the same as Dave's,. and I don't know many mac users without major probems with their machines, all of their machines, from older iMacs to newest mac pros.

>>>For many media professionals today, it is quite helpful to work on both platforms, because it is so common to have to work with other people who work on either platform.<<<

Nothing wrong with that, but most of these argumens come from Mac side ( claiming how Macs are superior ), I'm just pointing out that Windows is just as stable as OSX ( or unstable in wrong hands, or if you get unlucky with your machine ) , and there are more choices on PC side, especially if 3D is a big part of your pipeline.

Ford vs. Chevy....Democrat vs. Republican.....Apple vs. PC

It's all the same. The diehards on either side will always trash the other. Let's see, what's the technical term? Ah, yes, Thickheadedness.

Reminds me of a kid in the playground who likes for everyone to play with him and his toy. Unless another kid brings a different toy, and some want to go play with him. Then the little brat has a hissy fit, and says bad things about his departed friends, the new kid and the other toy.

That's why I said early in the thread to go with a Mac. I knew it would bait the bratty kids in here.

So, the summary at this point is that there are advantages to both platforms, insofar as there are very effective software packages that are specific to one or other of the operating systems. There's a lot of experience withs PCs on this forum, and we know from many postings here that PC systems aren't problem free.
Macs have a reputation for performance and reliability, and we know the machines are significantly more expensive. Some people know people who've found their Macs not to be reliable as reputed and believe their performances inferior.
On the other hand there are a lot of people using FCP for professional video production and of those that I know they don't mention problems with their machines. We can probably assume that service is called if they do have problems, but maybe that also applies to production houses running PCs.
The difficulty is to get hard information about reliability of Macs. I know people who setup and service PCs for business and academic circles, but they don't touch Macs and generally do the black magic signs when they're mentioned (rather as we've seen here).
The difficulty in getting hard information is that few people use both platforms, and such useful information as does exist gets lost in the noise of strongly expressed opinion. This hardly helps anyone trying to make an unbiased assessment of buying one or the other.

Some super programing dude on another forum says the new Mac with Parallels and XP/Linux is the biggest best thing since Chevrolet and Apple Pie. He said with Parallels you don't have to reboot and that it is the slickest thing he has scene. He gets into huge detail which was way over my head as he has worked for IBM, Microsoft, and Apple.
JJK

Executive summary of the comments here on the ACSI study:

"If Apple users are satisfied with the quality and support, they are delusional.
The PC users who were just a few points behind are mentally OK."

it is so common to have to work with {...] people who work on [the other] platform.

Really? Apple has sold 500,000 FCP licenses. I very much doubt that all PC NLE licenses added up together get close to this number. Looking around what's in professional use, FCP has a crushing lead and I would frankly like to see them get more competition. And I'm rooting for Vegas here.

As I have said several times here, 3D on the Mac was not practical until one year ago. There was a total lack of good GPUs and CPUs, and because of this, lacking application support. Today there is modo (the freshest, really awesome architecture that's become popular in a very short time), Lightwave 9 (used on major TV series and feature films), and Strata 3D (same user interface as Adobe's applications, so it's much easier to learn than traditional apps).

For Maya, etc., PC is the choice, no problem.

"... and we know the machines are significantly more expensive."

Serena, that hasn't been my experience. As I said in my initial post on this thread, Prices are comparable with either system.. Not sure if that's because I live in Canada but that's what I found.

Mike

>>>>Apple has sold 500,000 FCP licenses. I very much doubt that all PC NLE licenses added up together get close to this number<<<

don't know, don't care. Britney has sold a lot more CDs than Al di Meola. It's a meaningless statistic that may prove marketing and fluff is more important than substance, nothing else.

The conclusion is, you can do just about anything with either one.

But, there are more options on the pc side ( don't try to deny that )
3D can be done on a mac, but still, not many people do. I am one of the LIghtwave users, although don't use it as much these days. Lightwave is one of those apps that forced many mac users to buy PCs ust to be able to use Lightwave to its full potential ( but that's another topic ). Modo is just 1/2 an app at this time. Now I mostly use XSI which doesn't exist on macs, and so far Fusion doesn't work on them either.

Price wise, yes, difference is still quite significant. Apple uses same parts as everybody else. They are basically selling you a Dell in their case and with OSX.

PC laptop example:

2 GHZ core2 duo
2 gb o f RAM
160 GB 5400 rpm hard disk
nVidia 7700 video card
1680 x 1050 resolution 15.4 inch screen

$1700 total.

Now go to apple's site and customize a Mac book pro to match these specs, then come back and tell me there is no significant price difference. ( And Macpro looks pretty sad next to this one, I saw them both in the same store. Image quality is much better on the asus , and just look better overall )

"A University of Michigan ACSI study published yesterday showed "Apple was the only company that received high marks for both [manufacturing] quality and support."

Deusx writes: That doesn't prove that apple manufactures quality or provide good support. That proves something we all already knew; Apple fans are delusional...

Deusx, if anybody's delusional.....

I like how these forum's help us to gauge the intelligence of someone, or lack thereof.

I am intelligent enough not to judge somebody's intelligence by a few forum posts.

Sure you are.

>>>>Prices are comparable with either system.. Not sure if that's because I live in Canada but that's what I found.<<<<

Mike, I have to admit that I was stating a belief rather than a fact. Several times in this thread I've considered that it would be helpful if people would say "I believe..." when stating an opinion and "It is...." when stating a fact.
I haven't checked out prices here. Recently I helped out a video producer who normally edits with FCP and whose current Mac desktop wasn't up to speed for editing HD (his first use of HDV). He was impressed by Vegas capabilities and, perhaps for the first time, could see that PC systems actually work well. The Mac system he said he would need would cost him twice that I'd recently paid for my specially built system, but we didn't get down to detailed analysis of comparative performance. I doubt that he'll change to PC because he's grown up with "Macs are better", as indeed the OS definitely was when he got into using computers. He's the only Mac user I know who used to fix his own (got into Macs when given a 'hand-me-down').

I think for notebooks, it's easier to get a good price on a Windows-based ditto than a MacBook.

My wife needed a notebook recently and was open to either platform. I suggested she buy a Lenovo T60 for $1,199. Core Duo, 15.4" glare-free screen, Win XP Pro, fingerprint reader security, robust and very well built as you would expect for a $2,600 corporate laptop (the price until shortly before the Vista release).

Couldn't get a Mac for that price (well, the cheapest Macbook, but then you're back to shaving mirror and non-sculpted keys, etc.)

Oddly enough we couldn't find any other reasonably priced PC notebook with a glare-free screen. Apparently everybody likes to shave or do makeup in front of theirs, I just don't get it.

For desktop systems, it's perhaps easier to get carried away price-wise on the Mac side, especially if you're dealing with somebody who is used to buying certain brands of pricey peripherals. If you buy your RAM from OWC instead of Apple and your hard disks etc. from normal places, you can definitely match or beat comparable PC vendors.

Dell has suffered so many lost sales to Apple that you only have to whisper "Mac Pro" to be offered an immediate 25% discount.

Now, before deusx comes back to say that he was able to configure a Skankex.com PC with a Ruralogic Mk. I motherboard and a wall wart power supply for less than a Mac Pro: yes, Goodwill Industries has PCs for less, and you can even find new PCs from brand name suppliers with low end Asus motherboards for less than a Mac.

When you look at comparable performance, the Mac Pro does really really well, regardless of whether you run OS X or Windows on it. It's quiet, fast, and expandable (and the 8-core version should be out momentarily for those who don't want to self install).

If you run OS X, there is another often forgotten cost difference in the plus column. Many people need MS Word and Powerpoint, so they buy MS Office. This software has gotten more and more expensive, complicated, and buggy each year, and it really is overkill for most people. With OS X, you can get iWork for $69 (or $0) with Pages that for most people is better than Word, and Keynote that for everybody is v-a-s-t-l-y better than Powerpoint. Both apps are rock-solid to the point of being boring.

OK, since my preferred editor is Vegas and it runs under Windows, then the question becomes; how fast can a super-duper Mac render the "rendertest.veg" file? My QuadCore machines do it in 14 seconds and as fast as 10 seconds if I overclock them. Anyone know how fast the fastest Mac can do it?

>>>Now, before deusx comes back to say that he was able to configure a Skankex.com PC with a Ruralogic Mk. I motherboard and a wall wart power supply for less than a Mac Pro: yes, Goodwill Industries has PCs for less, and you can even find new PCs from brand name suppliers with low end Asus motherboards for less than a Mac.
<<<

Yeah, yeah, you can find skankex.com parts in your mac and I can point them out for you.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/blogs/securifythis/soa/Is_Apple_s_MacBook_Pro_rotten_to_the_core_/0,139033343,139267968,00.htm

Many , many examples ( that I have witnessed personally too ) of apple screwups..

I am talking about ASUS laptops, and since there are no takers to that price challenge ( because you know it's embarassing to even try ).

Up the ram and HD to match, and 15" MacPro will cost you $500 more, and you will still be stuck with a 1440 x 900 screen and a 2 generations older ATI card. Both completely unacceptable in my case.

factor those two into the equation and you are closer to a $7-800 difference.

Apple just doesn't give you any real optons. It's the same for desktops.

To get back on track. Choose your machine based on apps you want to run. If you really want to edit on FCP, you have no choice but to buy a Mac, but please, lets lay off these Macs are beter claims. They are just overpriced Dells in a different case and with OSX. I would never buy either one. So the only real diffrence is OSX, and since I have no problems with Windows ( not since win2K ) what would be the point of switching to an OS that doesn't run 90% of my apps of choice, runs all my games and flash apps 25%-50% slower, and would cost me hundreds more per machine.

Maybe in another life if I return as a macochist ( misspelled on purpose of course ).

Seems I got lucky with my Rev. 1 MacBook Pro, because it has not had even one peep of a problem in spite of being used 24/7 since April 2, 2006.

My Compaq 64-bit notebook OTOH has had to go in for repair twice because of motherboard problems, and then a third time because of a defective DVD burner.

I'm aware there were people who had problems with their MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Dells that caught fire, etc. Notebooks have a higher failure rate than desktops, and Macs are not immune to that. Last year was a monster success year for Apple, and they didn't manage that success perfectly from a manufacturing standpoint, but all customers were taken care of eventually.

Still, the same advice applies to them as with everybody else: wait till Rev. 2!

I did say that for notebooks it is difficult to match the value pricing on PC notebooks. There are some advantages with the MacBooks, but they don't apply to your situation. What's odd right now is how the PC notebooks seem to have switched wholesale to glossy screens that double as shaving/makeup mirrors, a crime against humanity imho.

Your point is the best: use the OS that runs 90% of the apps of your choice.

Flash will run as fast starting month after next, when Adobe finally gets their native code version out. The current Mac Flash is interpreted, no wonder it's slow.

Deusx,

I keep expecting you to say something intelligent, instead of just bashing Apple. But it never happens.

... with a statement like, "They are just overpriced Dells in a different case," he needs to look inside a Mac Pro (that's the desktop computer, the notebook is MacBook Pro and very difficult to get into like all notebooks).

The Mac Pro is incredibly beautiful inside, and more importantly, it's a very functional design.

And yes, we know, if your focus is on running every DirectX First Person Shooter, then stick with PCs (probably not Dell until Michael gets the company back to its former glory).

Even Maya 8.5 is now Mac OS X native, and 3dsMax 9 "runs wicked fast and is stable as heck" on Macs with Bootcamp according to Autodesk's user forum.

So deusx really has a choice, he may see a "deus ex machina" yet.

(but for that it has to be a Mac :O) :O) :O)

There is lots of missinformation and mythology being spread around here.

Mac are NOT easier to use, for that matter often they are much harder. Each time i'm forced to work on Mac i struggle (and i have o do it quite often) and feel verry happy when i'm back to my PC. From productivity standpoint, and easo of use PCs win over Macs. Not only that the technical know how is vital to keep any machine running, it's just when something goes wron on Mac you are stuck -- and trust me things do gow wrong with Macs actually from my experience more often then PCs. Lets not even start about the whole "PCs crasha nd Macs don't" myth that falls to pieces if you just try to use Macs.