OT: Questions about Hi8/Digital 8 VS MiniDV

Sticky Fingaz wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:17 AM
Yesterday I took video of my son's first birthday and when watching the tape (it was a MiniDV tape in a Sony VX2000) I of course got tons of drop outs, and vertical banding and all that nonsense. I am livid!

So I went out and checked out a Sony DCR-TRV460 camcorder which is plays back 8, Hi8, and Digital 8 tapes. Here are my questions:

I bought this because I am sick of the drop outs I get with MiniDV. My Sony VX2000 was JUST professionally cleaned 2 weeks ago, and I NEVER switch brands or models of high end Sony tapes. Does 8/Hi8/Digital 8 have less or no problems with drop outs? Do these cameras have the same "rule" of not switching brands thanks to different lubricants?

Can I put a normal 8mm tape in this and record in analog to ensure a 0% chance of drop outs? I know the picture quality would dip, but if I'm ensured no chance of drop outs, it's worth it for things like my kid's birthday.

My PC and Sony vegas recognize this item just like any MiniDV camcorder, and hell, I put an old analog 8 tape in this thing, and Vegas downloaded it like it was just a normal MiniDV tape. Awesome, if you ask me. Is MiniDV's picture quality substantially better than Digital 8 or Hi8?

What's the benefit to using a Digital 8 tape when I read I can use normal 8mm tapes and this camera will record digitally to it? (Though cutting total time in half)

Thanks a ton in advance.

Comments

GaryKleiner wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:32 AM
Bottom line is that you should NOT be having dropout problems with your Sony VX-2000.

I have several of them and have been using them for years (and the VX-1000 before that). I also know MANY people who use this camera without a problem.

I suspect that you have a problem with your head drum. Have it check by a shop that knows what they are doing.


I'm Gary Kleiner, and I approved this message.
Barry_Green wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:35 AM
Digital 8 uses DV compression and DV data, so the data on the tape is DV data. That's why Vegas and other programs will recognize it.

Hi8 was notorious for bad dropouts, but they were analog dropouts, not digital. The venetian-blind effect doesn't happen on analog formats, but could theoretically happen on a Digital 8. Never heard of it happening, but it potentially could.

Digital8 cameras may be more dropout-resistant than DV cameras due to the much, much larger tape area of 8mm tape. The data is spread across more surface area of the tape, which means that a defect (or flake or dust or whatever) on the tape will affect less data, proportionally, than it would on the smaller DV tape.

However, Digital8 is a proprietary Sony format and may or may not even still be in production... is it?

Digital8 cameras always record digitally, you cannot record analog data on one of them (although they can play back analog).

Now, getting back to the VX2000 -- what kind of tape were you using? You should only ever use premium-quality tape if you want to avoid dropout: Panasonic Master series, or Sony's top-end tape, or even DVCAM (or the expensive new DVCAM premium tapes). If you were using cheap tapes you got over-the-counter from Wal-Mart, you may encounter more dropouts. I've had horrible dropouts in the past from Maxell and TDK tape, and rarely ever any dropouts of any kind from Panasonic MQ's.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:42 AM
how used are those tapes you recorded your kid on? Even DVCPro has dropouts on tapes that have been used a lot (recorded, played, re-recorded, etc).

The big advantage of using Digi8 is that it's the same tape as Hi8. They're relatively cheap & are widely available. I use a Hi8 camera myself & have never had dropouts, etc when record from it.
B.Verlik wrote on 10/31/2004, 10:52 AM
I, too, use a Sony Digital 8 and never have drop out problems, and some of those tapes have been used a few times. I also use a cheap ($188.) Canon Hi-8 ES-75, from time to time, and the only drop outs I get on that are when the camera gets shaken from either moving it up or down very fast, or stepping in a pot-hole or something that causes a jerky movement. I use the same camera when transfering into A/D converter/computer.
Liam_Vegas wrote on 10/31/2004, 11:23 AM
Yesterday I took video of my son's first birthday and when watching the tape (it was a MiniDV tape in a Sony VX2000) I of course got tons of drop outs, and vertical banding and all that nonsense. I am livid!

I also have a VX2000 - and there is no "of course" here related to seeing drop outs. You simply should not be getting them - unless something is up with the tape you are using or the camera.

My VX2000 is 2 years old - recorded hundreds of hours and never a problem.

You say you had it professionally cleaned 2 weeks ago. Was it havong such problems before you had it cleaned? Did these problems start after it was cleaned? Maybe something went wrong with that process? What did that professional "cleaner" think about the camera (did they test it)?
farss wrote on 10/31/2004, 12:03 PM
The D8 format is one of the most robust there is and my experience with my camera backs that up. Maybe not that many head hours in total but it's had so much sand in it at one time it was hard to see through the viewfinder.
Unfortunatley though although Sony were not the only company to build cameras in the format it was never really well supported by the manufacturers and was always considered very much 'consummer' so you'll never see a 3 CCD D8 camera (very sadly IMHO).
But as others have said your MiniDV camera should work better than that. In all fairness to the guys working on it, it's a dog of format. I've also noticed many (most?) people don't seem to notice dropouts. Checked 3 cameras last week, all had dropouts in test recordings and yet I was the only one who noticed them.
Bob.
johnmeyer wrote on 10/31/2004, 2:45 PM
Dropouts are NOT normal. They should not be happening.

Just out of curiosity, what do your dropouts look like? You mentioned:

"drop outs, and vertical banding and all that nonsense."

Vertical banding is not a dropout. That is something else entirely. Also, are you, by chance, referring to dropped frames? I don't think you are, but a clarification would help.

If you are getting vertical banding, that can be caused by a failure in one of the heads; it can be caused by a head clog; and it even can be caused by slack tape (or at least that's what I was told once).
riredale wrote on 10/31/2004, 2:52 PM
I've run dozens of Costco-purchased TDK miniDV tapes (~$3.50 each) through my VX2000. Never a problem, even at LP. Take your camera and a representative tape example back to the outfit that serviced your camera and tell them you want a human, not a chimp, to do the calibration this time.
craftech wrote on 11/1/2004, 8:16 AM
Next time send it to an authorized Sony service center. The one in New Jersey does a nice job.
John
Jsnkc wrote on 11/1/2004, 8:24 AM
We used to use Sony MiniDV tapes till we noticed that we were getting tons of droputs and other problems. We have since switched to all Panasonic tapes and haven't had any problems. I think the brand of tape might have a lot to do with it.
RalphM wrote on 11/1/2004, 11:16 AM
Ditto from me - have two VX2000s and I do not get dropouts. I use Sony DVM60PRL tapes exclusively. You can get them for less than $4. Something is wrong. I would suggest sending it to Sony along with a tape that shows the problem. It's not a cheap trip however.

In good lighting, the Digital 8 will do very well. I've edited some footage shot on a Digital 8 that was excellent. The transport should be almost bullet proof, given it's evolution over 20 years in the 8mm/Hi8 format.