OT: Recording a large choral work

farss wrote on 1/6/2006, 12:34 PM
When I say LARGE I mean the whole deal, full orchestra and a choir of over 100. Venue is a historic church with acoustics that obviously suit the performance.
On the one hand it could be kept very simple, a single XY mic with correct placement to capture the performance with the natural ambience. However the client is talking about wanting to make mixing decisions in post, we have access to as many mics as we need for free, yes a few hundred if that's what we want! Just rounding up enough stands is going to be one small part of the challenge but what to record with?
One approach I can think of is to mix down to groups, that should get us down to say 24 tracks but even then I'm not seeing a whole lot of options for recording 24 tracks, I'm not finding mixers that can handle that task and it still leaves a lot of the mixing decisions being made on the day rather than in post.
Having gone through all the mental anguish of working out how to even cable 100 mics to a desk(s), get the levels right etc my brain keeps coming back to KISS, just one stereo mic in the right place and the jobs done, after all how much better can it be made to sound than what it sounded like in the venue on the day?

The video of the event you ask, piece of cake, three or four Z1s, couple off dollies and a jib, maybe a A1 for some hand held closeups.

Bob.

Comments

winrockpost wrote on 1/6/2006, 1:17 PM
Farss, I'm sure no audio expert but KISS always makes sense to me. On the other hand if you can get as many mikes as you need, maybe do it like a musical play, every performer miked,plus the single XY mic with correct placement .

I know you arent in the states but we do a lot of video work for large broadway musicals and I could get you in touch with the sound dude. just email me if interested.
RalphM wrote on 1/6/2006, 1:24 PM
Bob,

Coming from a low level amateur, but have done some recordings in large spaces...

I don't think 100 mics are necessary or even desirable. Orchestras are separated into fairly large sections, and it is not feasible to stand a mic directly in front of each section as there will be noise of moving sheet music, instruments being set down, etc. Given that it is a historic church, suspending overhead mics is probably not feasible either.

You may wish to use perhaps half a dozen mics pointed to give coverage to the orchestra in "geographic" sections. Depending on the size of the choir, 2 - 4 for them as well.

I would also put two somewhere near the rear of the hall, to pick up the ambience of reverb, etc. Try to keep the ambience mics away from the audience as they are a noisy bunch. Maybe up high in the choir loft if there is one and it's not populated....

If cabling to the rear is a big problem, I'd suggest minidisc or one of the solid state recorders to capture the ambience mics. They can stay in sync with your other equipment for a long time before the drift will become a problem

Without the ambience mics, the recording is going to sound sterile as the levels of the up-front mics will have to be adjusted to deal with the direct sound from the performers, probably pushing the reverb picked up down into the mud.

Oh Yes, and try to get to a rehearsal to see how the mic placement works...

Amateur advice is worth what it costs, but just my 2 cents.

RalphM
MichaelS wrote on 1/6/2006, 1:46 PM
Bob,

I do this sort of thing quite often. Generally, I mic as necessary the various sections, then mix down to groups and record 8 tracks using my MOTU Traveler.

Track 1 & 2, X-Y on the full chorale
Track 3 & 4, single mics for solos
Track 5 & 6, X-Y on the orchestra
Track 7 & 8, for whatever else may be needed (vocals, harp solos, etc)

As for the ambient mics...a great idea in a closed hall, but I've never been able to use them with a full audience...just too much noise.

I'll use just a touch of reverb on the individual channels to give them some life. Then, mix according to the setup. If the harp is to the left a bit, that's where it goes. This is simple to setup, monitor and to produce.

farss wrote on 1/6/2006, 1:58 PM
Michael,
that's sort of the way I've been thinking, what do you use in front of the MOTU for mixing, I know just about ANY mixer would do of course. The big attraction is the group mixers could be local, that'd reduce the amount of cabling dramatically.
Bob.
MichaelS wrote on 1/6/2006, 2:22 PM
Bob,

If I need to "ride the gain", I use a couple of Mackie VLZ mixers. The mic pres are better than most. For the choral X-Y's, I usually just run them directly into the Traveler. The MOTU mic pres are darn good!

Several important notes.

1. You want it to sound natural. Even though I may compress a bit in the final mix, I record everthing raw.

2. Give yourself LOTS of digital headroom. If your S/N will allow it, record with peaks at around -20db. You have to be at rehearsal for this and even then allow for louder volume.

3. Tape down your cables after you're satisfied with your setup. The last thing you want is a little old lady doing a cartwheel coming on the stage.

4. Once the program starts...leave it alone. The art of setting up a recording is hands on...recording is usually hands off. Leave your mics open in the event you need that audio later on (provided there on separate tracks).

5. MONITOR

Good luck!
reidc wrote on 1/6/2006, 2:55 PM
U would do as Michael suggested:

Track 1 & 2, X-Y on the full chorale
Track 3 & 4, single mics for solos
Track 5 & 6, X-Y on the orchestra
Track 7 & 8, for whatever else may be needed (vocals, harp solos, etc)

BUT I would also put a mic up for each section of the orchestra. You'll find this invaluable should you want to mix in surround.
farss wrote on 1/6/2006, 3:15 PM
Thanks for all the inputs guys, it may happen that this thing gets to air, or it may not happen at all!
That's part of the problem, they usually have an OB van with a 96 channel mixer and a dedicated sound crew but this event isn't slated for broadcast (yet) so no free ride with the audio side.
I've looked pretty longingly at the MOTU, particularly as it has SMPTE TC, that would sit very nicely with our planned XLH1s for a mini OB setup.
But I'm also looking at the MultiMix 16 FireWire from Alesis, so far I've not heard anyone rubbishing the mic pres, just the usual ASIO driver dramas but Alesis seem to be getting that under control and the thing is damn cheap with 8 mic inputs etc to give 24 individually recordable inputs. Thing with mic pres is I stick usually to LDCs so I'm never needing heaps of gain on the mics so noise isn't that much of a drama.

Bob.
Billae wrote on 1/6/2006, 4:28 PM
You want to blow their socks off and keep it simple at the same time? Record it into "Vegas" or a digital multitrack using at least four studio mics. Place one at each of the four coners up high and directing down so you don't get too much of any person or any instrument. When you record all four tracks, mix them in vegas and make a surround sound mix by panning each of the four tracks correctly as the mics were originaly positioned. That should give you an awesome surround sound mix and give the person listening the experience of almost being there.
bakerja wrote on 1/6/2006, 4:30 PM
Does the Alesis Multimix 16 work with Vegas? I happened upon this post and have been eyeballing that mixer for a while. You are right farss, it is cheap and I would like to know if anyone has any first hand experience using it with vegas. I am looking to replace my old worn out mackie 1604 and the alesis looks like a good fit.

Any ideas?

JAB
farss wrote on 1/6/2006, 5:02 PM
Only place I've found ANY user feedback is on some CuBase forums, it ships with CuBase LE. General consensus seems to be that it works OK with that code via WDM or ASIO 2 drivers.
I seem to recall Vegas having some issues with ASIO 2 but maybe that's just to do with real time monitoring. In the end I don't think it matters if one was to use CuBase or Vegas to record, it's only providing the handling of the 1s and 0s.
The unit only goes upto 24/48K so probably the purists don't think much of it, personally I think for most work 24/48K is more than adequate. 16 channels of 24/48K is going to be eating up HD space pretty quickly so that'd be something to watch out for,
Maybe I should just shell out 1,000 Pacific Pesos and write my own review.
bakerja wrote on 1/6/2006, 5:22 PM
I am also considering the M-audio project mix I/O. It sounds like what I need to replace the analog mixer and get a controller with motorized faders, mackie control support. It is about $1000 on the streets.

JAB
B.Verlik wrote on 1/6/2006, 6:46 PM
I may be the only person in the world that likes them, but for non-electric music, I do like PZM microphones. Especially in big, reverby rooms. I think a pair mixed in with everything else you have might be useful. (you may not need them, yet they may save the day too. Just put them on their own tracks.)
musicvid10 wrote on 1/6/2006, 10:28 PM
Bob,
All great advice, but if you'll put up a to-scale plat of the room with the choir and orchestra layout, I'll gladly send you a prelim sound design. I've done quite a bit of this over the last three decades in rooms from 200 to 2,000+
farss wrote on 1/7/2006, 4:56 AM
musicvid,
thanks for the offer, if I can get plans I'll let you know.
Basically it's a traditional style church, maybe 150 years old, if the client stays interested in retaining me then I'll go do a reckie.
Other nasty issue is it's right in the middle of the city over underground rail lines and in our city being on solid sandstone the vibration of the trains gets into ground floor buildings, might be a bit better lately as the put isolation mounts under the sleepers.
Bob.
craftech wrote on 1/7/2006, 4:59 AM
Bob,

Mix magazine has some great articles. They just wrote another article on Orchestral Recording.
They have written others.

Also look through the articles at ProRec.com.

Also Bob,
I hope you aren't thinking of trying to do this alone?

John

farss wrote on 1/7/2006, 6:22 AM
John,
thanks for the links, lots to digest there.
As for the doing it myself part, well, ah, let me see, I can't run very fast and the more I think about this whole project the more I'd like to run and run very fast. That's why I keep coming back to something real simple, the 'Decca Tree' approach sounds like an excellent idea, a bit dated but then again simple, you get some minor degree of control and that's probably about all you should have in this circumstance.
I mean, all the technology at our disposal today opens all sorts of possibilities. One could technically close mic everything and record literally 100s of channels, I could see just a set of timpani being good for 12 mics and channels alone. But in the end what would you end up with, would it sound like you were there, in that church? Well perhaps with a HUGE amount of work, some data to feed into Acoustic Mirror etc and for what, apart from the 'doing it becuase I can' sort of twisted logic.
So I'm thinking I'll suggest to the client we get Rode to donate a set of NT4s or three matched mics, record them into a field recorder at 24/48K. Maybe put a pair of mics at the rear feeding another recorder so we have something for a 5.1 mix if needed and leave it at that. After all this audio goes with images, those images cue the brain as to how the sound should sound. This is a bit different to a audio only CD where there's no visual cue as to the performance space.
Bob.
bakerja wrote on 1/7/2006, 8:23 AM
Have you considered the Crown SASS mic? It sounds perfect for this. A couple of these babies and you are done!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SASSPMKII/

I have used them in both choir and orchestral and they are well suited for this project.

JAB
TShaw wrote on 1/7/2006, 1:37 PM
"Oh Yes, and try to get to a rehearsal to see how the mic placement works..."

Ralph and Michael are absolutely dead on about this!
This should be rule number one when dealing with any type of remote recording job.
It would be good if you could be in the church with a large group of people, to hear what the noise level could be like. would help with
mic placement.

I like Michael idea for the mic setup.

Goodluck Bob,

Terry
farss wrote on 1/7/2006, 2:52 PM
We get the Rode mics for free!
They're used an aweful lot and have a VERY low noise floor, the NT1A that I have is not only remarkably cheap but has the lowest self noise of just about any mic ever made at 5dBA. And the other nice thing about Rode mics, the factory is only a few KMs away! Nice to see an Australian company for once building world class kit.

I wouldn't say the make the very best mics on the planet but you'd probably need to spend ten times more to hear an improvement and for those into 'tube' mics, their tube mics are real tube mics, custom made tubes in matched pairs already.

Bob.
douglas_clark wrote on 1/7/2006, 4:03 PM
Here are a couple articles from Sound on Sound magazine that discuss choice and positioning of mics etc., although not specific to Vegas.

Recording A Live Choral Performance
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun04/articles/liveconcert.htm

THE CHOIR MASTERS, Recording A Choir On Location: Part 1
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep99/articles/location.htm
and Part 2
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct99/articles/location.htm

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farss wrote on 1/7/2006, 9:18 PM
OK,
I'm sold. I've SOMEHOW gotta convince the boss to lay down some serious money for a Soundfield mic system and a Cathederal Pole.

About the only place that seems to sell them is in Las Vegas, at the price of these things my airfare is looking rather trivial.

Bob.
TorS wrote on 1/8/2006, 2:40 AM
If you know the church and its accoustics - OK. If not, talk to people at local radio stations, studios etc, people who may have input on special problems and stuff.

There may not be much of a rehersal for the orchestra - as they are rather expensive to keep hanging around. But the choir most likely will have rehersals - at least in the day-time before the concert and possibly (if they are local) one or two afternoons before. Be there.

The other thing: Find out about the music being performed. Buy records if possible. There is a great difference between recording a major Bach piece and something by Stravinsky. The key word is dynamics. Not only will Stravinsky go from four p's to four f's, but large sections of the orchestra may be quiet for long periods. Bach, even in a modern rendering, will not use much dynamics in the instruments but rather go from full orch to ensemble - to accommodate soloists. You should know what happens when. If it is a premiere performance - get on to the composer or the publisher.
And yes - stick to your KISS.

[I once booked Anvil Studio, Denham for a 6 piece group of classical players. Speaking with Eric Thomlinson beforehand, I asked about booking extra time for mixing. Mixing? he said in disbelief. We didn't mix Star Wars, why should we mix your music?
The soundtrack music for the first Star Wars film was recorded directly to stereo - wham bam. And Eric was the man who did it, at the very Anvil Studio. The album though (I think) was mixed.]

Good luck Bob.
craftech wrote on 1/8/2006, 5:21 AM
I've SOMEHOW gotta convince the boss to lay down some serious money for a Soundfield mic system and a Cathederal Pole.

About the only place that seems to sell them is in Las Vegas, at the price of these things my airfare is looking rather trivial.
---------
Bob,
According to Soundfield's website Studio Connections in Australia sells them:

Studio Connections
11/41-49 Norcal Road, Nunawading, Victoria 3131, Australia
tel +613 9874 7222
fax +613 9874 7666
email enquiries@studioconnections.com.au


John
MichaelS wrote on 1/9/2006, 7:34 AM
Bob,

One other quick note. I run a Mini Disc recorder as a backup off of the Mains from the board. Has saved my rear on many occasions!

Good luck!