ot: reprise 1080i vs 720p

ushere wrote on 3/8/2012, 9:53 PM
i know, done to death, but i've just search through the archives, and googled, and i'm still confused. (so much so i emailed my mentor, bob, but his email seems to be kaput!)

briefly: (it's now sort of tied to my other post re satellite broadcasting)

why am i shooting 1080i (PAL)?

my work is basically shooting horses and short-form doco (talking heads, pretty much static scenes, and some titles (incl scrolling for trainers)).

edit with vegas (obviously!), mostly out to inter/intranet @ mp4 720p, or sd dvd. but now i'm being asked for hdv 720p (rushes and final cuts).

would 720p (from camera onwards) make my workflow any easier, cause any deterioration visually, etc.,?

Comments

fldave wrote on 3/8/2012, 10:27 PM
If you are perfect with the camera shots, then shoot 720, IMO.

1080 gives you lots of leeway in cropping down to 720 without the risk of interpolating.

I'm liking 720p for an all around end product, but still shoot 1080.
Andy_L wrote on 3/8/2012, 10:29 PM
As far as I"m concerned, 1080i is the same thing as 720-60p. So the choice between the two is probably just semantics. If you have the option to shoot 1080-60p, then there's more of a decision to make. And if you shoot 720-30p, you are losing the ability to create identical 1080i footage, if you care about that. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it.
Laurence wrote on 3/8/2012, 10:33 PM
>I'm liking 720p for an all around end product, but still shoot 1080.

That's pretty much me as well. Another thing is that if you shoot with a DSLR, there is less moiré and aliasing at 1080p because fewer pixels are being skipped. Also, with the DSLR, zooming while you are shooting is pretty much out of the question because the back focus is off, the iris changes in jumps, and the manual zoom ring isn't really designed for video zooming. A little extra resolution lets you do gentle zooms and pans in post. Since I've started doing this I've really liked how that lets you do things like time a zoom in that ends with a smile or a turn of the head. I suppose I will end up with a 4k camera at some point because I would use this for 1080p HD delivery.
NickHope wrote on 3/8/2012, 10:35 PM
I don't understand that Andy. 1080i is 1080 lines. 720p is 720 lines. Not the same thing.
Laurence wrote on 3/8/2012, 10:51 PM
I'm shooting 1080p at 29.97 fps and downrezzing my final renders to 720p at the same framerate using Handbrake (because of it's slightly superior resizing algorithm). I've downrezzed 1080i to 720p using Handbrake and it's decomb filter and it actually looks pretty good, but I'd still rather shoot progressive if I have that option.
Laurence wrote on 3/8/2012, 11:01 PM
Shooting at 1080p and downrezzing to 720p also gives you a little room for deshaking with Mercalli without losing end resolution.
farss wrote on 3/9/2012, 1:45 AM
One thing easily overlooked is generally the same camera shooting progressive compared to interlaced will deliver more vertical resolution. I've found this quite noticeable on the EX1 comparing shooting 1080p25 to 1080i25.

The danger is if you have to deliver interlaced that'll be viewed on a CRT 25p can deliver too much vertical resolution and quite nasty problems with line twitter / aliasing can bite hard. So far I've found 1080p25 pretty safe. I've had major issues with 720p50 though however the content included brick wall with fine horizontal detail. More testing needed I think to compare apples to apples.

Bob.

ushere wrote on 3/9/2012, 3:00 AM
ah bob....

i failed to even consider 1080p25 vs 1080i25. (which is what the z5 will do).

working on the principle there's probably NO crt's left in my audience, would 25p be better than 25i?

(where's my betasp decks!?)
farss wrote on 3/9/2012, 4:00 AM
"working on the principle there's probably NO crt's left in my audience, would 25p be better than 25i?"

I would say yes. Motion rendition may still not be as good however as many HDTVs these days do all manner of magic anyway this seems less of an issue than it used to be. In anycase if you shoot 50i and then de-interlace to get progressive you lose that and you may well be loosing vertical resolution as well.

One other thing, you do lose around 3dB sensitivity shooting P.

Bob.
TeetimeNC wrote on 3/9/2012, 4:50 AM
>One other thing, you do lose around 3dB sensitivity shooting P.

Why is this Bob?

/jerry
farss wrote on 3/9/2012, 5:38 AM
"Why is this Bob?"

Because when shooting interlaced the processing includes line pair averaging. This prevents line twitter and reduces vertical resolution but also averages out noise. The last bit means an effective increase in sensitivity.

Bob.
c5_convertible wrote on 3/9/2012, 7:07 AM
1080i is interlaced, which effectively means that 2 x 540 lines are displayed (one for even and one for uneven lines) at a refresh rate of 25 or 30 frames (depending where you are). 720p is progressive, which means that the full 720 lines are displayed at any time, in a refresh rate of 50 or 60 frames.

When it comes to bandwidth, they are considered identical.

(which is how I understood it...)
JJKizak wrote on 3/9/2012, 7:39 AM
Our local OTA tv stations broadcast in 720P and 1080i and they are spectacular with both resolutions with the exception of one 720P channel which "has diminished skills".
It is a touch blurry edged with a touch of "VHS Syndrome". I would suppose it is old equipment rather than path interference. Sony XBR2 tv.
JJK
Andy_L wrote on 3/9/2012, 8:37 AM
Nick that was kind of a sloppy post at the end of the day. More specifically, I'm referring to my belief that output on everyone's LCD screens and TV's is always progressive, so if you're shooting 1080i, people are seeing deinterlaced footage with a vertical resolution pretty much equivalent to upsampled 720p.

Bob's points are probably more interesting to contemplate...
John_Cline wrote on 3/9/2012, 3:39 PM
The spatial resolution between broadcast NTSC 1080i and 720p is different, but they both have the same temporal resolution; 59.94 individual images per second.