OT - Saving Pennies For HVR-Z1

randy-stewart wrote on 12/29/2004, 9:04 PM
Okay, I'm about to bust a gut holding this in so I'm gonna have to blurt it out. Just had the priviledge of spending the better part of two hours one-on-one with Spot playing with one of only 12 HVR-Z1's on the planet. This is one amazing camera. Not only is the picture quality hard to believe, the features that Sony has included are choice. Imagine, if you will, looking at a professionally done still photo about poster board size that is simply the most clear, super defined, and amazingly rich colorful picture you've ever seen. Then imagine it in motion. That's the closest I can come to describing the footage that I saw today. I kept hearing myself saying "good God, look at that quality" over and over again. I just couldn't get over the clarity and rich color depth. I'd seen HDV before but this seemed...better. Then Spot begain showing me some of the new features. Right off I noticed several buttons on the left side of the camera. "What are these for" I asked? "Those are the preset buttons, let me show you how they work" said spot. He quickly set up a rack focus shot with a wine bottle and two glasses and then proceeded to focus on the last glass, then second glass, then the bottle. Then he hit the preset button, and the camera automatically focused on the last glass, 2 second interval, second glass, 2 second interval, and the wine bottle. Sweet. You can set the interval longer too. No more manual rack focus shots that depend on your skill with zoom and focus. Set it up and hit the preset button. There are several of these buttons available and they can handle tasks like, color bars, display ON/OFF, record preview, audio dub, index mark, steady shot stabilization ON/OFF, allscan mode, marker, hyper gain, white balance outdoor level increase/decrease, auto exposure override, back light, and fader to name a few. Just think, no more fumbling with the menu on the fly. Set up the shots and hit the preset button for the mode. Sweet. There are over 40 new features like these. I'll leave the descriptions to the pro's but I just had to tell someone about what I saw today. This is one blown away amatuer-pro wanna-be video editor. Many thanks to Spot for letting me glimpse the future of digital video. This has been a very special day.
Aloha,
Randy
P.S. Appologies if I've miss-stated any of the descriptions above, I'm a little excited.

Comments

Barry_Green wrote on 12/29/2004, 9:56 PM
The quality on an HDTV is just startling, isn't it? If you've got an HDTV to view the footage on, there's nothing out there like the FX1/Z1.

About that rack-focus button thing -- it's a lot more than that. Yes you can control focus and zoom, but there's so much more to it -- you can set the speed of the transition, you can control the envelope of how the transition takes place (so it can ease in and sharply cut out, or ease in and out, etc)... but you also can transition other things, like white balance. Take one white balance setting at the beginning, then set a different white balance at the end, and then as you execute the transition it'll smoothly shift the color for you. If I'm not mistaken, it also controls iris and shutter speed, so you could maybe set up a shallow-focus shot and then (without changing framing or exposure) have it stop down the lens, but slow down the shutter simultaneously, so you could get a cool out-of-focus-to-in-focus ramp, while the zoom doesn't change at all. It's a neat feature. I can't imagine all the possibilities it could be put to, but I bet we'll see some interesting things done with it.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 12/29/2004, 10:07 PM
Without sounding like the preverbial kid in a candy store.

I want it, I want it, I want it!

Well, maybe I sound like him, but I don't care, I WANT IT!

Have a nice day :)
farss wrote on 12/29/2004, 10:22 PM
One other REALLY good thing about the Z1 one that gets very little attention: It shoots SD PAL and NTSC!
Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/29/2004, 10:22 PM
Yeah, I showed Randy how to modify the transitions too, but we didn't go through every feature in depth. Hard do do in a couple hours. I also showed him some really sweet timelapse I did of clouds over the Koolau (sic?) Mountains. I'll be showing a lot of this footage at the Sundance Film Fest. Also did some shots with the Sony F900 and a lot of shooting with the 750, using Fuji lens at fixed length, as well as an XL2, and a DVX100a.
Barry, I know you love the DVX....but it just doesn't compare. Not side by side. I'll grant that the CF24 mode is a very different look from the XL and DVX, but that's an aesthetic, not an accurately comparable format.
I wish we could have found a way to quad-stack these four cams, but here in Hawaii, we didn't have access to that kind of equipment. So, 2 tripods on a beach, in a no-wind area. I'll post stills as soon as it's convenient. Busy capturing several hours of m2t right now....:-)
BTW, this stuff will all be up in portions, for you guys to download and play with on the VASST site.
Barry_Green wrote on 12/29/2004, 11:00 PM
<<Barry, I know you love the DVX....but it just doesn't compare. Not side by side>>

On an HDTV, no, there's no question. I agree.

I do not agree when we're talking about an SDTV, or making SD DVD's... the DVX is substantially less expensive than the Z1, and does the whole filmlook thing. But on an HDTV, the Z1 and FX1 are literally in a class all their own. Some day they'll be challenged, but right now they own the low-cost HD market outright.

I have always said that they're all superb cameras, just with a different focus. And if you're making HD content, the Sony's are definitely "wow".
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/29/2004, 11:08 PM
Oops, I failed to mention too, that we had Sony's new Wide Angle on there. Normally, I'd never think Sony was getting great add-on glass, because I've compared some of their previous WA lenses for the PD 150, etc, and felt Century and some of the other companies offered better glass.
Here is a picture of the Z1wideangle lens, as seen from an FX1. I reduced the image size significantly, but it musta seemed strange to people in the park seeing us shooting a videocamera with a videocamera.
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/29/2004, 11:11 PM
I dunno...while I'd say the Z1 and the DVX are comparable in SD mode, (it's basically a PD170 in SD) and subject to opinion, where it really, really screeems, is when you shoot HDV and let Vegas do the downsample instead of the cam. I don't know why anyone would do any differently anyway. One of the things you need to get used to is the sharpening menu. If you leave it set to 0, it's a softer image than it should be, and I see a little bit of artifacting when you have extremely high contrasts. I wish I had a manual for the Z1 while I'm shooting, it might help. I guess we're sorta "writing" the manual that doesn't exist.
farss wrote on 12/29/2004, 11:29 PM
Perhaps we should remember this is the industries first serious attempt at building such a camera. It's going to be a hard act to follow of course but I'm hearing of JVC having something in the pipeline.
Panasonic should be able to clobber something interesting together pretty easily, they've already got a 50Mbps transport. I know that wouldn't meet DHV specs but if they kept everything else the same I can see no reason why it wouldn't work with existing software written for HDV.
I'd imagine Sony will have the market to themselves for at least the next 12 months, maybe that's why they're not too worried about the bad press from the price hike. If anyone does have anything in the pipeline I'd reckon they'd better speak up real quick, very soon whatever dollars are going to be spent on HDV will be in Sony's pockets.
Bob.
Barry_Green wrote on 12/29/2004, 11:42 PM
<<where it really, really screeems, is when you shoot HDV and let Vegas do the downsample instead of the cam. I don't know why anyone would do any differently anyway>>

That's the way I tested it, and the results were images that were, at best, comparable to what the other cameras were delivering on DVD. Obviously there's no contest when you're talking about HD release, so I focused my energies on SD distribution (since I think that's going to be the far more significant market for the near future). What specifically are you doing to the footage, that's allowing you to get superior DVD results? I've still got the raw footage here from my comparison and I'd be glad to run whatever tests or use whatever formulas you suggest.

<<It's going to be a hard act to follow of course but I'm hearing of JVC having something in the pipeline.>>

I've heard that as well. They've announced their plans to do the $20,000 2/3" 3-CCD shoulder-mount interchangeable-lens 1080/24P HDV camera already, but apparently they're also planning on releasing a prosumer-priced camera soon as well. Haven't heard any rumors about what features, but it should make for interesting times.

<<Panasonic should be able to clobber something interesting together pretty easily, they've already got a 50Mbps transport. I know that wouldn't meet DHV specs but if they kept everything else the same I can see no reason why it wouldn't work with existing software written for HDV.>>

They're not going to, at least not any time soon. They announced that they'll be making a prosumer-priced DVCPRO-HD camera. Jan's already said something like "we'll have a DVCPRO-HD camera to counter the Sony HDV camera, and that's all I can say right now"... so who knows when, or what features, but they're putting their bets on DVCPRO-HD.

I don't expect to see a prosumer HDV camera from them any time soon, although I do expect that if HDV takes off, and low-cost consumer HDV cameras become common, I would expect Panasonic to join the coalition and offer them.

The thing Panasonic's done with DVCPRO-HD that I think is smart is lining up editing software before launching the camera. They've already got native firewire editing support in FCP-HD and Avid Express. I've lobbied Jan to get Vegas to support DVCPRO-HD as well. I don't know whether corporate politics will prevent that from happening, but I sure hope not!
Barry_Green wrote on 12/29/2004, 11:46 PM
<<(it's basically a PD170 in SD)>>

That's what I thought before testing it -- I thought that "there is no longer any reason for anyone to buy a PD170". But after testing it, I found the light sensitivity to be much less. The PD170 should be more than two stops faster than the Z1. The DVX was constantly two full stops faster, sometimes more, and the PD170 is a bit faster still. But in the FX1/Z1's favor they do offer native 16:9, that the PD170 doesn't. I came away with the impression that the PD170 wasn't completely obsoleted by the Z1, the light sensitivity issue well in the PD's favor. But that (and price) are the only reasons to consider a PD170 over a Z1.
farss wrote on 12/30/2004, 1:16 AM
We're ordering one for each of our HDV cameras, adds a fair bit to the cost but does seem necessary. Makes for a pretty front heavy camera though. One thing we can be thankfull for, Sony decided to use existing batteries, I know that mightn't sound like a big deal but when you supply three batteries and a charger as part of the kit it sure adds a lot to the bill.

Hey, hang on, I just looked at the picture, that doesn't look like a GENUINE Sony battery on the back of that camera?
If it isn't what gives, we tried a 3rd party battery that works fine on the 150 and the FX1 had a dummy spit!
Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/30/2004, 1:36 AM
Nope, that's a genuine Sony battery on the back, just the angle makes it look like it's not, I guess.
Barry_Green wrote on 12/30/2004, 10:43 AM
... and that picture is SWEET.
p@mast3rs wrote on 12/30/2004, 11:21 AM
Agree. I want this camera badly. I have an idea for a reality tv show that I was going to try and produce myself but I am sooo tempted to sell the rights to it so I can fund one of these bad boys.
winrockpost wrote on 12/30/2004, 4:27 PM
Spot,, I will more than likely buy one these cams ,but like any product it aint all great.I'm hearing and feeling lot of genuine excitement ,and anticipation, but I'm not hearing any negative at all.
Give us the scoop,,, what dont you like about this revolutionary cam.

winrockpost@bellsouth.net
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/30/2004, 5:25 PM
I don't like the shoulder harness. I don't like the way the menus are lined out, and I don't like that you need to learn a lot about the cam's personality before shooting anything decent. Some cams, you can just pick up and shoot great footage. With this cam, you can pick it up and shoot good footage, but shooting great footage means you need to know your axe. Once you set up a few picture profiles, you're good to go though.
I don't like MPEG audio. Not that it's bad, but if it's not converted, it can go downhill really quickly.
I wish it had interchangeable lenses, but frankly, I don't know that it would do much good, because the cost of adding interchangeability, plus the cost of designing glass and focal point for the SuperHAD system is probably so cost prohibitive, you might as well spend 40K for a low end HDCam system at that point.
I don't like that it uses consumer mounts for the tripod, but I hate that on all cameras. Miller has a nice professional standoff.
Overall, that's about it...
Costis wrote on 12/31/2004, 2:30 AM
Ηi Spot,

Is there any way to let us know your tips for a better image with this camera? I bought the FX1E, I am trying now with it to get a good picture of the beast. I think manual mode is painful on the Sony, not at all the intuitive way it was on the XL1s I owned before this. The printed manual is poor, even their english is approximative. (for exemple, "clear" means sharp...).

how can we find a "missing manual" of the camera or just 2-3 pages of good tips? Any link on the web?


Wish a happy new year to all of you!

Monica
farss wrote on 12/31/2004, 3:57 AM
Don't know if this will give you all the info you need, I don't have it yet:

http://www.vasst.com/cart/index.asp?function=browse&search=hdv

If you're reall quick, you'll get it a bit cheaper!
winrockpost wrote on 12/31/2004, 6:31 AM
objectivity is a wonderful thing
Thanks Spot
JJKizak wrote on 12/31/2004, 7:31 AM
Save a lot of pennies as by the time you get all the options---big batteries, carrying case, shotgun mic or the $600. 00 one, mounts, shoulder mount, wide angle lens, etc. its about $7000.00.

JJK
randy-stewart wrote on 12/31/2004, 11:07 AM
JJK,
Copy that. By the time I'm ready, I'm sure a second generation will be out and hopefully, prices will drop. Until then, I'll have to suffer (yeah, right) with my newly acquired PD-170. I've got lots to learn about being a cameraman anyway. If I'm lucky, I'll get to one of VASST's Power Production Training classes where they teach you the best ways to use your equipment. Lots of exciting things to learn about this profession. Looking forward to a great new year. By the way, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL on the other side of the international date line.
Aloha,
Randy
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/31/2004, 11:19 AM
Monica,
I can't speak much to the FX1, I've spent maybe half a day with it. While it's quite similar to the Z1, I'm not very comfortable talking about the menus of the FX1 without having one in my hands. The Z1 is sorta like Vegas; most of it I can recall without actually holding it in my hands. Sony Hawaii needed their pre-production unit back by this morning for a Korean distributor who wants to shoot the New Year fireworks show here, so I just turned it back in maybe half an hour ago.
I set up some picture profile modes in the Z1 to do what I want it to do, which included several settings for HyperGamma, Cineframe 30, etc. Work with the Sharpness. I've found that its sweet spot is in the +12/13 area. By definition, a setting of Zero should mean it's doing nothing, when in fact, a setting of Zero is softening the image contrast lines. Handy, but confusing.