Bravo!

Filmy, everything you said is spot on the money. Also embarrassing to me because I missed that Jessariah was directing the film. Somehow I tricked myself into thinking he was the DP. Duh!

Generally, debates with the producer should focus on money and they can take two or three forms:

1: One choice is cheaper than the other
2: One choice adds more value to the film than another (Saleable Vs. nor saleable)
3: One choice exposes the production to less risk than the other (like letting an actor do stunts, having fires on the set, using guns without an armorer, etc)

In the end, the producer is the client and the consideration that trumps all others is job security. Film and video production really gives substance to the phrase "Can-do spirit". You need to always have that attitude. People with a "Can't do spirit" don't get invited back for future jobs.

Oh, and budget/time/money conversations might be better discussed with the 1st AD first. Chances are good that he or she won't have conflicts of interest that a producer might have. Politically, the 1st AD is often the better person to approach.

Rob Mack

Very good advice Filmy. You do have to take the producer's ego into consideration. If he is reasonable, you should be able to convince him and come to a decision that is best for the production.

Another question I have is, is this a first time producer also? It seems to me that producer is betraying themselves as a novice or insecure.

Also how far into preproduction are you? You obviously have be visualizing how you would direct the script. It's odd for a producer introduce a change to your basic directing style. Usually a producer chimes in when difficulty comes up: you're behind schedule, you lost a location, you can't afford as many extras you wanted, etc.

The producer I'm working with is somebody I've been working with for two years now on a variety of industrials, commercials and promos. Firing me is not an option in this particular situation for reasons I'm not going to get into. I understand in a "normal" situation that I could be replaced.

We haven't found a DP yet. I doubt we'll be able to get a camera operator as well (much less 3...), so our DP will probably be manning the camera as well.

This is our first feature narrative as a team, so we're still finding our places in a new environment with each other as well as learning the very different animal that a movie is vs. a documentary or commercial. I had entertained the idea of more than one camera, but as I thought more and more about it, decided I wanted to just focus on a single subject at a time. He was assuming I was still thinking 3 cameras, so that's where argument came in (and it really isn't a big feud).

It wasn't the "who does what," but the fact that I was being told I was nuts to shoot a table scene with one camera that started the whole thing - as if that practice had rarely (or never before) been done.

We will also be using DV Rack, which adds another headache if we decide to go with more than one camera. And, we don't have much of a budget.

On a personal level, this may be the only feature project I do. I think I'd be good at it and I think I'd enjoy it, but I won't know until I actually do it once. There's part of me that wants to approach it a little more traditionally for this reason.

A good DP would have had a lot of input here and you need to get a DP hired and involved in the preproduction stage. Making all the shooting descisions before having the person who is the camera and lighting department head (The DP is more like a lighting architect, the Gaffer and Key Grip are the engineers).

Basically, all the director positions need to get involved in planning: Photography, Art, Costume, whoever you're hiring.

On lower budget shoots the DP will almost always be the camera operator. You definitely need a DP of some experience to help out with this sort of planning.

Rob Mack

Yeah, but something like this ventures into the director's realm, doesn't it? A DP isn't going to make the decision to shoot it all on green screen as opposed to different locations. He or she might suggest it, but it's ultimately the director's decision, isn't it? I'm not making any shot decisions at this point, except for how many cameras I want to use. Because this is heavily conversational and all in one place, I really want to have a DP's creative input on framing, camera movement, lighting, etc.

And nobody's being left out of any process. We literally decided to do this last week. We'll have a team together before we really start hasing out any of the details.

Don't get me wrong. I think a good DP and/or camera operator is invaluable on many levels and just as important as having a solid script and great actors. But ultimately they are there to capture the director's vision, not determine it. Right?

Absolutely. I think a DP ought to come into the process about the time you need to talk about shots. A DP won't determine your vision but a good one can help develop it as well as give you a sanity check. As a director, you'll do everyone a favor if you can concentrate on storytelling and performances and offload some of this other stuff to other people. Deciding whether the conversation around the table cuts from 2 shots to singles isn't the same as deciding whether to do it with one camera or three. The later is something to decide in concert with the DP.

But make it clear that the DP is there to do what you want. And what the producer wants.

Rob Mack

Yeah, but something like this ventures into the director's realm, doesn't it? A DP isn't going to make the decision to shoot it all on green screen as opposed to different locations. He or she might suggest it, but it's ultimately the director's decision, isn't it?

In a perfect world what people see as a final product would really be the directors vision combined with a crew who shared this vision. Sometimes you get this, many times you don't. And by "directors vision" I mean that the director reads a script and has a vision for it. That vision should be a team effort that works towards a good, at the least, or perfect end result. I kind of feel that the director directs actors, the DP directs camera actions, the sound designer directs the overall audio, the set desginer directs the sets and so on. Ultimatly the producer and studio sort of "direct" everything. (Actually more like dictate) You want to shoot on location for example but the producer says there isn't the money. So you have to shoot in a studio. The DP, however, says they can get a loaction for cheap but you have to travel 100 miles to get to it. Ultimatly who decides? No the DP can not tell the director where to shoot, however many times the DP may know a better location to shoot that fits in the budget. The producer may not agree with either and tell you that.

Example here, and one I may have used around here before, is one film that the producer was in another country. He faxed over a shot list - or a list of shots that loosley formed a script - that had to be in the film. It had nothing to do with the director, script writer or DP. The fax said that one scene had to be around a pool. There had to be at least one Playboy bunny in the film. There had to be a certian number of fights in the film, there had to be at least 2 nude scenes in the film. And so on. How these things were tied together was up to the director. Where they were shot was up to the director. But things like that sort of can dictate where you shoot, the budget can dictact that as well. One of my favorite production stories is that Steven Spielberg really wanted this scene in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" where the mothership hit a low bass note and this huge glass shattered. There was not money for the effect, the producer said no, the studio said no. So Spielberg did it anyway by spending his own money to shoot the shot. I have done that on a few films myself, not that major mind you but just because the money people say no doesn't mane it still can't be done...just find a way to do it yourself.

But than again your vision my be limited to the DP (And other crew) and how good they are, or how creative they can be despite the budget. Just because you can shoot on the beach at magic hour doesn't mean it will look good if the DP doesn't know how to shoot into the sun during magic hour.

I agree with that. I also know in the real world that the $$$ does most of the talking. The one luxury I have in all of this (at least artistically) is that I'm NOT getting paid, so I have a lot more control over it.

It should be very exciting, scary, exhuasting, educational process. I may be posting here in six months looking for references for the Burger King management program...