Ditto the splicing audio tape. While fascinating, the video (film) verified why I never did film as a pastime.

It gets a little more interesting because the super 8 sound cameras actually record the audio , if memory serves, 12 frames behind the actual picture frame which makes editing more interesting. I still have a super 8 sound camera and projector along with a 3D camera and projector. :)

-ed

Edit: I stand corrected - 18 frame offset at 18fps and 24 frame offset at 24 fps. Transferred may feet to video.

Interesting to see how it was done "old school". (By the way, the YouTube title says "1973", but the end of the film shows "MCMLXXVII", which would be 1977. I was in high school in 1977.)

Anyway, I was surprised to see that the audio was recorded on sprocketed film rather than the "stretchy" magnetic tape we're all familiar with. It looked like movie film with an oxide coating rather than photographic emulsion -- makes a lot of sense, I guess.

Also, I was puzzled by the "rain hood" the guy was putting on the camera at 2:10, inside a studio, until I realized that was probably a sound insulating device to suppress the noise of the camera itself. (Am I right about that? Any old-schooler's here?)

Old-schooler here!

Correct - the 'sprocketed film' you mention is what was called 'full-coat' in the video. Film fully coated with magnetic oxide for recording.

And yes, the hood was to suppress camera noise. You have no idea how noisy S8 cameras were.

I still have my full setup in boxes in the basement - viewer, sync block, full-coat recorder, winders, S8S camera etc.... Hasn't seen the light of day in over 20 years.

In a typical S8 sound camera, sound was recorded one second offset from the picture - either 18 or 24 frames (can you spell 24p???) - depending what you were shooting. At 18fps, you got 3 minutes of footage in a 50' cassette of film.

That video sure took me back a ways.

Tom

All I can say is "Thank God for Vegas".
JJK

"I still have my full setup in boxes in the basement - viewer, sync block, full-coat recorder, winders, S8S camera etc.... Hasn't seen the light of day in over 20 years"I posted this picture once before - part of an inheritance from my dad. The box included home color 16mm from as far back as 1949 - I'll post some footage later.



...Jerry

Watching that made me so glad my first involvement with movie making was with 16mm. The thought of cutting camera original sends shivers down my spine.

Bob.

JJK,

AMEN!

Tom

Okay, here's a sample of my father's 16mm color from 1949. Really crappy conversion to digital - one of these days I'm going to box up the reels and get a professional to make the transfer to digital.



btw, I'm the 2 year old with my mother. Dad wields the camera, but also shows up toward the end of the video.

...Jerry

Okay, here's a sample of my father's 16mm color from 1949. Really crappy conversion to digital - one of these days I'm going to box up the reels and get a professional to make the transfer to digital.I've been experimenting with some software that takes "crappy" conversions and turns them into something closer to a "frame accurate" film transfer. Here's the result of using that software on your clip:

Dewey and Me (improved)

The flicker reduction is pretty nifty. I also applied about six different fX to work on the gamma adjustment. There are still quite a few frame blends, although if I had access to the original video from the transfer I could probably eliminate some of those.

FWIW, here's my closest clip, with then-VP Nixon in 1960 emerging from our Junior High. I was at the entrance where he emerged and put out my hand, but being only eight at the time, he not surprisingly passed me over. I never forgave him ...



Amazingly, no one in my family took these, and it wasn't until fifty years later that I was given the film to transfer. It was rather eerie because I remembered that scene exactly, and here it was, in motion, all those years later.

john, you were fortunate he didn't shake it - you might have found some fingers missing.....

actually, watching that first clip had me thinking that compared to some of the sound mixes my clients have subjected me to in post (with modern nle's) juggling 8mm and a couple of reels of audio tapes would be child's play.....

OMG .. that could have been me editing in the film !! .. I never did much with Super 8 sound (shot lots of Super 8 silent) -- but the principals were similar in film making and lots of the work was the same. 16mm was just easier to handle -- and we used Moviolas as well as viewers and rewinds. I spent many a long night (hell all night) syncing dailies -- assembles - - rough cuts -- and fine cuts Good Lord that little movie brought back memories. I started out at UCLA in 1962 .. Theater Arts Dept. Film and Television. Learned everything there. The equipment was not bad. We had Eclairs, Arriflex (Nagras for sound) and Auricon for Single System .. all 16mm. Upright Moviolas for editing. Sound Mixing studio. You could do it all. And we did. How exciting those days were.... Later I shot with Bell and Howell (hand wind) Filmos,and Bolex and, Beaulieu -- sometimes used 16mm Mag stripe stock and we put narration tracks on using a double threaded Siemens projector !! .. Oh those days... I knew every trick on how to do Low Budget 16mm double system... I once won the Davis 15 min Film Festival !! .. Yee Gads .. That's why I'm still blown away by what can be done all on your own with Vegas.

That's why I'm still blown away by what can be done all on your own with Vegas.

though i agree with you, i still miss the 'old days' when post usually meant an editor, a fx wrangler (ado, abacus, zeno, whatever), audio sweetener, graphic artists, etc., etc.,

i now look at ads for 'mutimedia' personnel and read things like; must be able to script, shoot, post, produce website, distribute, etc., etc.,

fine, we've all become pretty proficient in handling all aspects of a production ourselves, but i really miss the 'real' interaction with other pro's on a production - that's not to demean in the least the amazing and knowledgeable support offer here, and on some other forums, but to have another pro working alongside you (albeit director, editor, cameraman, whoever) was always (well, most of the time ;-)) a welcome source of ideas, criticism, help, etc.,

The thought of cutting camera original sends shivers down my spine.

Bob .. Been there. Done that. Had to. No choice. While I was in the the 221st Signal Company (Vietnam) I made a half hour recruiting film about Civilian Army Auditors in Saigon. We used something called a CM16 for single system sound shooting and Bell and Howell 16mm Filmos. We souped it at the 600th Photo Squadron (Air Force) in Saigon as they could process 16mm reversal used in aerial recon .. I got that as a favor .. probably traded a bunch of Kodachrome 35mm .. then, using the original 16mm footage with mag stripe, I cut it on our upright Moviola in Long Binh. It was a combination of single system sound footage, silent 16mm footage shot on mag stripe, wild sound (we had a Nagra) and a narration track that we recorded on a Siemens projector. I’m sure there were a few “pops” on the track and the original had more than a few scratches by time I finished. But it was a completed film. Recently I met up with the guy who voiced the Narration for me. It had been 41 years since we’d seen each other. He told me what I’d forgotten. We got an Army commendation for that film and it was reproduced (scratches and all) and show all over the world to help recruit Army Auditors to take an assignment in Saigon. You see, the Army Audit Agency was having problems getting enough volunteers – imagine that.

johnmeyer said: "I've been experimenting with some software that takes "crappy" conversions and turns them into something closer to a "frame accurate" film transfer. Here's the result of using that software on your clip:"Thank you, thank you! This just shows once, again that you "are the man" when it comes to film to digital transfer/processing. What an improvement!!

What is the software you're using for this process?

The reason for this crappy transfer is that the original transfer was made in the 1990's with a VHS camcorder pointed into one of those frosted screen gizmos. I didn't know any better at the time, so I set the camcorder on auto exposure. Also, the frame timing is all off - notice the double images in the pans. Then, a couple of years ago, I ran the VHS thru my Canopus Acedvio converter to get DV. I've been thinking about redoing the capture, but my 16mm projector doesn't work particularly well (the film is brittle & I'm scared of blowing the bulb - where would I get a replacement?). I recall you recommended a transfer service some time ago - who has that?

btw, great job on the Nixon video. I like the cropped image effect.

...Jerry

I used to repair and modify those old Bell & Howells. They were mechanical nightmares kind of like teletype machines. Also would squeeze out every once of response from those optical systems. Best bet was to get new ones and if you could select the best performing (registration & side movement). The auto restore would only work occasionally and on good condition films and end up having to push the manual button or rethread the film. . Burned many holes in films and bulbs. Just like "Two Lane Blacktop". You haven't lived until you have one of these suckers dis-assembled on a table in front of you trying to figure out what is wrong. One of the best film prints for color was "Sweet Charity" and was also in Cinemascope.
JJK

I know it was done. TV newsreel footage was shot on 16mm with mag stripe. What still has me puzzled was cutting knowing that sound and vision was offset, that'd drive me nuts.

Our first film was shot with a clockwork Bolex with a 3 lens turret. We got to borrow a Nagra to record some wild sound that we transferred to 16mm tape and synced the one bit of sync sound. The rest was music, FXs etc. If I recall correctly when we did the mix we had 8 tracks of sound, one was just a loop.

I can't remember the name of the editor we used but it was a flatbed so easier to work with than the Moviola, it'd take a and b rolls. I remember marking the one dissolve we could afford :)

The closing titles were Letraset on black card and we just shot them outdoors. For a "special effect" I doused the last card with kerosene and lit it while the camera rolled.

I'm still undecided about uploading that little movie to YT. Let's just say the music we used (physically stole , actually) even today would land us in very hot water. Back then we must have gotten away with it because we were just a bunch of school kids, how times change.

Bob.

What is the software you're using for this process?I used an AVISynth script that was posted by "Dideé" over in the doom9.org forum. He is capable of creating some absolutely brilliant scripts that manipulate video in some very unique ways that very few people would think of doing. His approach to the flicker reduction is particularly unusual, but wonderfully effective, as you no doubt noted. I've posted his script below. The key thing to tinker with is the "frate" variable. It will determine how many fields will get decimated from the original. If you walk through your video one field at a time (which you can do in Vegas by setting the project frame rate to 2x the fps of the video on the timeline, and also set the project fields to "progressive"), you will sometimes see more than two fields from the same frame of video. Any more than two fields need to be deleted. You will also see blended fields, where the video camcorder recorded during a time when two film frames were displayed during the time the video camera's "shutter" was open. These need to be eliminated as well, BUT only if their elimination doesn't result in losing the information from that frame. In the end, you want exactly two fields of video for each frame of film: no more, and no less. If one or both fields of video do not come from a pristine, unblended frame of film (i.e., without an adjacent frame also being exposed), then you have to find the field which has the least objectionable blend. This is what the "SRestore" script does (it is actually a script that uses other functions).

The reason for this crappy transfer is that the original transfer was made in the 1990's with a VHS camcorder pointed into one of those frosted screen gizmos. <snip> I've been thinking about redoing the capture, but my 16mm projector doesn't work particularly well (the film is brittle & I'm scared of blowing the bulb - where would I get a replacement?).If you were to do a transfer like this again, using a projector you already own, but which you don't want to modify, the way to get the best results is to first replace the bulb with a lower wattage bulb, preferably 40 watts or less (most projector bulbs are several hundred watts). You can sometimes get an LED bulb that will "pop" right into the socket. There are specialty bulb sites on the Internet that have an amazing array of such things.

Next, you want to try to capture the image by pointing the video camera directly at the projector lens. If you have a telephoto lens on the projector (for projecting in an auditorium) or if you have a zoom lens and can set it for telephoto, you may be able to make this work. I can do this on my Eiki 16mm projector by putting my FX1 about four inches from the projector lens. To reduce the hot spot, I removed the condenser from the projector's light path and used some frosted glass instead. If you don't get a hot spot in the center, you don't need to do this.

If you know you are going to use software like what I posted below, I would recommend using a really high shutter speed (like 1/500) to eliminate most frame blends. However, doing so will accentuate the flicker, but only until you run the script below. After you run the script, you should see almost no flicker, and by using the high shutter speed, you will completely eliminate blended frames. The reason you DON'T want to use a high shutter speed when NOT using the script below is that you are going to capture some fields that are completely black (because the projector shutter was closed during the entire, very brief time the video camera shutter was open). The flicker will be awful. However, the software below has no problems at all realizing that a completely black field should be removed.

Just to be clear, the flicker is caused by the fact that the projector shutter is closed part of the time and, since the projector and video camera are not synced together, during the time that the video camera exposes a field, sometimes the shutter will be closed for part of this time, and the frame of film that is projected just after the shutter opens will only be captured for a fraction of the time that the following frame of film is exposed, since it will be projected for the entire duration of the video field. Thus, the shutter causes a difference in the time each frame is exposed, in effect altering the effective shutter speed of the video camera, frame-by-frame, and this causes flicker.

Without access to software like I show below (which didn't exist until a week ago), the usual recommendations of what to do to avoid flicker is to use the slowest shutter speed possible (which is 1/60 for an NTSC camera -- anything slower will end up blending ALL fields, which is not what you want). This longer exposure means that you minimize the difference between the brightest and dimmest exposures. Another recommendation is to use a projector shutter with more blades. If you have never seen a projector shutter, it is not like a still camera shutter at all, but instead is just a wheel with blades which block the lens opening as it spins. In order to reduce perceived flicker, and avoid causing headaches, most projectors use a three-bladed shutter which means that the shutter closes not only when each film frame is advanced, but also twice more while the same frame of film stays in the gate. While watching the film, this triples the flicker rate from what it would be if the shutter only closed during the film advance. This higher flicker rate cannot be perceived by the audience, so no one gets headaches.

When doing a film transfer, if you instead use a five-bladed shutter (which is what is recommended), you end up reducing the difference between the maximum and minimum exposure that you get because EVERY field of video will now include some portion of time when the shutter is closed, so you never get a perfectly bright field of video. By reducing the difference between the brightest and dimmest exposure, the flicker is reduced.

The final thing recommended is to adjust the speed of the projector, while looking at the video monitor, and change the speed until you see the least flicker. Not all projectors have a speed control, but if yours does, this can make a huge difference.

As for where to get replacement bulbs, there are several really good light bulb stores on the Internet that I've used. For LED bulbs, I have used superbrightleds.com. For general bulbs I have used 1000bulbs.com and bulbs.com (Amazon also has a large selection). However, for specialty bulbs, like projector bulbs, I use Bulbster. They have an amazing inventory. It's just fun to go there and poke around.

I recall you recommended a transfer service some time ago - who has that?Well, I transfer stuff, but most people prefer to deal with someone local, to minimize shipping costs and to not put their one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable movies at the mercy of various freight services. I think you will find that in the past month, several people have posted in this forum links to various services they recommend. I don't have these links handy but I'm sure you can find them. Both used frame-accurate scanning technologies, including one which uses the industry-standard Cintel transfer system, the same thing used by "Hollywood" and professional filmmakers everywhere.

Here's the AVISynth script:

Loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MVTools\mvtools2.dll")

import("c:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\srestore.avs")



avisource("e:\frameserver.avi").ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)



o=last



o.bob(-.2,.6)

SRestore(frate=17.36)

requestlinear()

rest=last



calm = rest.temporalsoften(1,255,255,32,2).merge(rest,0.25)#.repair(rest,1).removegrain(11)

calm = calm.temporalsoften(1,255,255,16,2).merge(calm,0.25)



LOP = calm.bicubicresize(180,144).bicubicresize(720,480,1,0)

HIP = rest.bicubicresize(180,144).bicubicresize(720,480,1,0)

HIP = mt_makediff(rest,HIP)

mix = LOP.mt_adddiff(HIP,U=2,V=2)



sup1=rest.msuper(levels=1)

sup2=mix.removegrain(11).msuper()



bv2=sup2.manalyse(isb=true, delta=2,blksize=16,overlap=8,DCT=5)

bv1=sup2.manalyse(isb=true, delta=1,blksize=16,overlap=8,DCT=5)

fv1=sup2.manalyse(isb=false,delta=1,blksize=16,overlap=8,DCT=5)

fv2=sup2.manalyse(isb=false,delta=2,blksize=16,overlap=8,DCT=5)



rest.mdegrain2(sup1,bv1,fv1,bv2,fv2,thSAD=640)

Damn you johnmeyer! I think you have started me on new project - and my golf game is going to suffer [grin].

I'm still not sure whether my very old projector is up for the job. It's a Keystone A-82:



...Jerry

I've actually used that projector, or one almost like it. I can smell the hot metal just looking at the photo. You definitely will want to use a smaller wattage bulb, no matter what you do.

I think that projector does use a DC motor which can be slowed. If you don't want to use it, you can get some amazing equipment on eBay for almost nothing. I still can't believe that I got an amazing Eiki 16mm sound projector for only $9.99, plus $21.94 shipping. Deal of the century, as far as I'm concerned.

Just a thought. if two soundtracks makes a "double system", what does that make Vegas? Unlimited?

Double system is a reference to a live sound track being recorded separately at the time the footage is shot that is "synced" with the picture either by interlock (cables) or by use of "crystals" to keep each running at the same speed. It doesn't refer to two sound tracks. Single system is "sound on film" meaning the sound is recorded directly onto the film at the time of shooting.