Core Audio's Tetramic might be a good solution, much cheaper than the Soundfield or Holophone mics. Core Audio also have a not overly expensive recording solution. With all of these mics accurate balancing of the recorder seem vital.

The only objection I've heard raised regarding these kinds of ambient recording mics is the sound source can sound "distant".
Bob.

"There are surround mikes that output matrix surround that can feed the two audio channels of most cameras, and then expanded in post to 4 or more discrete channels."

The problem with that... as I understand it anyway, it that at present there is no software solution to decoding the matrix surround for editing purposes. It has to be hardware decoded and recorded to separate tracks if you wish to edit the sound.

Of course it's been a while since I last delved into this... has somebody presented a software solution yet?

Would this be of any help?

Explaination of how one might use it here.
All this assumes you are talking about decoding B format files.

Bob.

Thanks for all the replies guys.
I didn't want to go too much into detail to begin with but... :-)

I have had a Tetramic and Core's 4Mic preamp on order for well over a year. Len at Core Sound says the 4Mic will be going into production sometime this month or next.
But 4Mic was originally scheduled for delivery prior to Xmas 2007. So I'm not holding my breath.

Regardless of when I get my 4Mic I will still need a solution for synch.

With 4Mic I can multiplex down to 2 channels on to the SPDIF input of my Microtrack.
Then it's a simple matter to take the A format that this is and produce B format with essentially any final output (mono, stereo, 5.1, 7.1, whatever.whatever) using software.
However this solution is wild sound. Fine for most all what I do for my own purposes.
But...
I want to get back into doing professional sound as a sound man. (My last pro gig in films was in East Africa somewhere around 1969).
Things have changed quite drastically since then 8-)

I can't remember what I did for synch back then, I think I was using a Nagra while my buddy was using either an Arri or an Eclair. I could have just been doing wild sound into my own reel to reel Uher portable recorder, but I remember we were doing interviews and we were hiring gear so it was probably a Nagra.

So... fast forward 40 years...
I guess I'm going to be recording time code on a fifth channel. SMPTE I guess.
Hence the 2 choices in my original post.
4 channels of A format sound into either an R4 Pro or a MOTU Traveller.
With an SMPTE time code signal from the camera into either the dedicated SMPTE input on the R4 Pro or (and here I am a little fuzzy) one of the line inputs on the Traveller (it has 4 mic inputs and 4 line inputs) and then record the Traveler's output on a laptop.

I hoped some of you might have done synch with the Traveller. The MOTU web site does not go into enough detail for me to figure it out for sure.

Ahh, I just re-read Fars comment on the sound being "distant".

Yes, absolutely right, the physics of sound and basic sound recording techniques have not changed one bit. Of course it will be distant - and therefore pretty much useless for dialogue.

How do you get a boomed general purpose or as you say fars "ambient" mic close enough to pick up dialogue.
It isn't going to happen unless your in tight with the camera, or you don't mind the mic being in shot.
So scrub dialogue with a single point surround mic. Dialogue will have to be done with radio mics or perhaps a shotgun on a boom.
Best to have someone point this out now eh!

After being away for 40 years you haven't missed much, "tubes" and ribbon mics are back in vogue. The only advances that I know of in our understanding of sound came from Lake's work on long line fourier analysis and before you ask I'm not even certain if that's how to spell it :)

What Vegas can't do is something you're probably familiar with which is chase timecode. It can sync timecode from BWF files but not output them with timecode. Thankfully though today everything runs off accurate clocks so drift is fairly minimal, I can get within a frame or two over 1 hour between my camera and R-4.

Many of the audio recorders seem able to record timecode however they may not sync to it which if you want 100% accuracy is what you might want to look for.

For dialogue recording it is still shotgun or lapel mics, there's some more sophisticated shotgun mics around from companies such as Sanken if you've got deep pockets.

Bob.

In Hollywood, until very very recently, sound was recorded with mono mikes on multi-track recorders, and the surround sound field was completely generated in post at great expense.

Now it's becoming more common to mix mono mikes with ambience recorded in native surround, because it just sounds more real, "in your face," and it saves time when building the final sound field.

There is also Boom Recorder, "a multitrack field recorder designed to be used during the high stress production of a tv/film shoot, a concert or a live stage performance."

It records up to 64 tracks with time code, and has been used for Flags of Our Fathers and a number of other Hollywood and international feature films (it was recommended to me by a very experienced feature film DP).

formats

Yes, the basic physics of sound and the basic principles of microphones have not changed in 40 years. In 2000 I authored a training cd called Microphone Techniques for Radio. A very simple thing designed for the raw beginner in the Asia/Pacific area.
Was a lot of fun catching up. Biggest difference was stereo. Back when I worked in broadcasting and films everything was mono.
Now of course I'm into surround. :-)

Ahh, but my problem is not so much sound or microphones it's my total lack of experience with current sync practice.
For example: I'm not sure what you mean by "chase timecode".
I assume it means just lock everything on the timeline to the timecode on a frame by frame basis.

Also I'm *very* alarmed by your saying Vegas does not do timecode (except for BWF).
Vegas is my main audio tool.
Actually I'm *astounded*.
How can Vegas claim to be a Pro product for video and audio when it won't do timecode?
I didn't consider that possibility.

Wow. This is serious news for me:
My favorite software is useless for professional sync...
Whoe, Dude.

However...
I'm looking to buy some gear that will do sync but I have that horrible sinking (Unggh) feeling that I am acting just like Michael Palin when John Cleese says: "The first thing employers are going to ask is not: Do you have a Lion Tamers Hat"
Heh heh!

There is also Boom Recorder,...

There's also Metacorder but, like BoomRecorder, they're Mac only :-(
The R.A.M.P.S. newsgroup (rec.arts.movies.production.sound) is a great source of information for the equipment and techniques being discussed here.
Take Vos, the creator of Boom Recorder hangs out there as do the creators of Metacorder..

Mike

The Metacorder is $1795, Boom Recorder Pro is $241 net (if you buy the Lite version first and upgrade). There are differences, but not for everybody. It can be helpful to pick up the 30-day Pro full functionality trial to see if it meets your needs.

RAMPS is an amazing resource that predates the web, it is still full of current practical information that is very difficult to find anywhere else.

The suitable inexpensive notebooks now have firewire again, after massive customer complaints about their replacement with USB.

How can Vegas claim to be a Pro product for video and audio when it won't do timecode?

It started out as a music recording studio product, then added "multimedia" and later DV25, HDV, and more formats, but film and broadcast were never primary design considerations.

Recently some TV stations have started using Vegas for on-the-fly video journalism where speed is of the essence,

I can't speak for Sony, but I would be surprised to see full time code support in Vegas anytime soon. It's too late to start developing it now, and it's late to even stop developing it.

Why?

There is now increasing pressure to switch to a new, more advanced time code system that can span more than 24 hours, and handle a few other things.

"For example: I'm not sure what you mean by "chase timecode".

Yes.
The old systems all recorded TC. On playback the mechanical drift was offset by sending control signals that made motors run faster/slower so it all stayed in sync.


There's a couple of location recorders that seem to be the industry standards on high end shoots. The Cantar X from Aaton seems pretty popular and friggin expensive. The Deva is another and also units from HHB. A trip to NAB and a walk around the north hall would let you get hands on with all of the above. Revox and Nagra are making digital versions of their original systems.

The top shelf recoders seem to record more than just timecode. I've only once had to handle files from a Deva, opened OK in Vegas but I couldn't read any of the metadata which I *think* comes from the electronics slates.

All of that said for your own projects you'll not have any issues syncing from clappers or lining up by looking at waveforms with Vegas. For high end work where you want all the bells and whistles and need to interact with others Protools seems the weapon of choice but I've made a good living at times with nothing more than Vegas doing just audio work.

Bob.

Bob, a minor correction to your post.
The proper spelling is Deva.

Mike

Thanks, yish, fixed.

Bob.