I'm also not in the mood to go out and pay $2000-3000 on a new TV at the moment.

Have you noticed that HDTV flatscreen TVs sell for as little as $159.00 in local stores now?

If you want a really good picture at a great price, consider a $349 Westinghouse 24" LCD (as mentioned here before) + a $150 Samsung ATSC Tuner for free over the air HDTV if you have this locally, or else pay $5/month or whatever for a cable company box.

If you want a bigger screen for about the same price (with less resolution of course), you can get a good 32" for about $450 and a good 42" for $700ish. And Black Friday is around the corner, with even better prices.

I can barely stand SDTV any more... (and I don't have a cable TV or satellite TV bill to pay... :O).

And Black Friday is around the corner, with even better prices.

Don't remind me.
My wife goes with her friends and leaves me with the kids.
If I'm lucky, she buys me a pair of jeans & a shirt :-(

Mike

consider a $349 Westinghouse 24" LCD

That's ~24" wide, right? Widescreen? That's ~13/14" hight, right? A 19" monitor is about that high. that's a puny TV. :( My parents have an HDTV a little bigger then that (maybe a 29" one) & I prefer the size of my SDTV vs the "quality" of their HDTV. Everything looks good when it's small, even low res photos. :)

Honestly, get a Wii. I have not had ONE person play WHO DID NOT LOVE IT. Parents, grandparents, co-workers, teachers, teens, young children, college age kids... belive me, it would be the best $250 you've ever spent on a game system. Just for the price of the Pro bundle ($350) you can get a Wii, ($250), extra controller set ($60 total: remote = $40, nunchuck = $20) & a game. Full two player with Wii sports & an extra game for ~the same price as a 360 with 1 controller. You and the kids will be playing together. Or not, up to you. You can buy old NES, SNES, N64, Sega, Genesis, TurboGrafx & NeoGeo games on the system. Any game that supports on-line is 100%, no extra costs/subscriptions.

seriously, best investment in gaming I've made. ever. If you're thinking about sales, it's sold more then the 360 in less then 1 year of release. Most big titles are on the Wii along with the 360 & PS3. And you know as well as I do (assuming you already have a console), kids play a game & then stop a few weeks later. So you know you'd spend ~$600 to get the 360 all up & going how they want & if you don't get another game within a moth or so after christmas it won't get played. With the Wii, you could afford several $50 games (not even counting the older/lower cost ones). Heck, from now to christmas there's a new Resident Evil, Mario Galaxy, Mario & Sonic: Olympic games, Guitar Hero 2, Geometry Wars: Galaxies (based on the X-Box Live Arcade game), Rayman Rabbids 2, Soul Caliber & Trauma Center: New Blood.

get the Wii. Skip the 360.

Have you noticed that HDTV flatscreen TVs sell for as little as $159.00 in local stores now?

Well, I'm in Canada so they aren't that cheap anywhere... our prices still haven't come down as a result of our increased dollar. That alone is enough reason to avoid a big-ticket item for the time being.

Also, I don't believe items that cheap are of particularly good quality. A flat-panel display has to be pretty good to impress me... more so the bigger they get. Even if they're "HD", most low-mid range TVs have a grainy look that conventional SD and all CRT screens lack. No doubt part of it's due to trying to stretch so few pixels over displays that now exceed 50", but to each his own.

Also, no TV that cheap (your stated $159) will have true 1920x1080 resolution, and that's a requirement for me. 1366x768 TVs are worthless; which is too bad for all those people who got suckered into buying one... if they want good quality, they'll have to replace it in another couple years.

$150 Samsung ATSC Tuner for free over the air HDTV if you have this locally, or else pay $5/month or whatever for a cable company box.

HD cable isn't that cheap up here. My aunt and uncle bought an HDTV and subscribed to Rogers Digital HD, and their bill doubled from around $55 to a bit over $100/month. No way I'm paying that... ever. I only watch 3 or 4 hours of broadcast TV a week. And since TV programs are getting worse by the season, I doubt I'll ever subscribe to HD cable until it's standard and the basic package includes it.

When I do upgrade to HD, nearly all my viewing will be from whatever optical disc format I choose; which is another reason for avoiding the low quality 1366x768 res TVs. Even if broadcast doesn't have the bandwith for true HD, the disc formats do.

I can barely stand SDTV any more...

I'll admit it's fuzzier, but I still find it quite watchable. And despite whatever claims the industry makes, it still takes significant coin to make a complete upgrade to HD... particuarly if you want equipment that's of moderately good quality and relatively future-proof (as far as any tech can be future-proof).

Personally, I can't make do with a second rate surround system and K-Mart brand flat-panel TV. My current surround receiver is a Denon AVR-3808CI (which itself costs more than many HDTVs), which should suffice for when I do upgrade to HD and Blu-Ray or HD-DVD since it supports codecs like Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD; which is one of the reasons I bought it. But I'd expect my screen to match its quality. And while an SDTV obviously doesn't, at least that's the level SD is expected to perform on. HDTVs don't have as much as an excuse to have crappy quality (relative to its optimum specs), yet so many displays do.

>>>Now the only way I'll get the PS3 is if I can come up with a sales pitch for a couple young teenagers for a PS3 game that is better than Halo 3... any suggestions???<<<

Can't help you much if they want to play Halo now, but when Metal Gear Solid comes out for PS3 ( exclusive ) they will want to buy PS3 too, so you'll end up buying both in the end ( or you'll have two psychotic teenagers, spending days talking to themselves and repeating, over and over, trying to convince themselves : "Halo is better" ,"Halo is better".

But of course....................................

[i]but when Metal Gear Solid comes out for PS3 ( exclusive ) they will want to buy PS3 too[/quote]

1) nothing is exclusive any more except first/second party software. it may take a year.
2) Snake's on Wii in February. :D

2) Snake's on Wii in February. :D

Of course, there's a crowd that won't see that as an alternative since the Wii is only capable of ED resolution max.

Metl Gear solid 4 is exclusive to PS3 and so is Final Fantasy, and a few other potentially console selling games. xbox will have it's final decent xmas this year, then it's all downhill from there.

Well there is no doubt that the PS3 is a FAR better machine for playing back video. Try playing back raw m2t files on an XBOX 360...not even close!

i've never seen someone wait in line for X hours to buy a game system because it could play back files. You could do the same thing with an HTPC for a few more hundred $$ & have a lot more functionality. I played HDTV quality files (1080p) on an AMD XP 1800 with 1gb ram because the HDTV tuner card provided acceleration. I was amazed to tell the truth.

Of course, there's a crowd that won't see that as an alternative since the Wii is only capable of ED resolution max.

In this case, they're the tiny minority. :) i'm sure a few tech/game industry vets were quite stunned when the "you need graphics to sell" argument was proven wrong. many game & tech companies lived off that.

Friar,
Forgive my ignorance... I'm asking this because I have difficulty playing a 1080 file on my system (dual core XP with 2 GB RAM) and I'm looking for any way to improve playback: how would an HDTV tuner improve my playback of a file? Wouldn't it just be used for HD coming from the TV signal?

I have a DViCO FusionHDTV5 RT Gold.. it's an analog+digital NTSC SD/HD tuner & HDTV accelerator. It can record/playback HDTV .mpg files & it's own format. That's on the AMD XP 1800.

I can also play HD files on my current computer no problem. The GPU (ATI x1950Pro) accelerated them. For acceleration to work you need certain file formats. IE my GPU will only play back MPEG-2, DivX, WMV9, VC-1, and H.264 HD with acceleration & also supports DXVA, which is what the HDTV card uses (a lowly ATI 9500 supports DXVA & that was the card I originally used for the HTPC. Then I went to a 9600 AIW. I forgot to plug the new GPU fan in all the way & killed that one. :( ). So obviously an HD uncompressed AVI may stutter (don't think it does though).

> I tell you... Halo 3 is going to kill the PS3 and Blu-Ray, not which HD format is better.

Actually I am seeing just the opposite at my house. My kids love playing Halo 3 and I bought a Toshiba HD DVD player because I can burn HD-DVD's to regular DVD's and finally play back my footage in HD. BUT!

All of the Disney movies that they love are only on BluRay and Spiderman 3 is only on BluRay so "daddy bought the wrong player" :( The way I see it, CONTENT and not GAMES is going to win in the favor of BluRay. I guess there will be a PS3 under the Christmas tree this year even though I agree there are no games to support this purchase.

~jr

I guess there will be a PS3 under the Christmas tree this year even though I agree there are no games to support this purchase.

and only because there's no BD player cheaper. Lame, isn't it?

I got a bit of ridicule when on these forums I expressed my disappointment with the Widescreen / LCD switch over. My reasons back then were:

1. People were starting to buy reasonably priced larger 4:3 CRT TVs and now they will get less screen real estate for more money.

2. Off axis viewing will put the audience in a narrower viewing cone because of the relatively poor off axis image of LCD.

So now we have a situation that bears that out. Simply put, you need to spend upwards of $700 to get the equivalent of a 32 inch CRT 4:3 TV in terms of widescreen screen real estate. My Sanyo 32 inch 4:3 television cost me under $400 a few years ago.

My preference was to keep the 4:3 TV and go with a projector, homemade 120 inch screen, and HD DVD player. That HT setup also goes with me to demo my videos albeit with an 80 inch screen.
I don't regret it.

Moreover, I rarely see digital artifacting on disc content, but HDTV is littered with it.


John

Johhny Roy - just wondering, since you mentioned burning HD DVD to DVDs, are you doing this all in FCP / Studio Pro, as I've done, or have you found a way to do some or all of the work / encoding / burning in Vegas and/or DVDA. I do most of my editing in Vegas but am forced to do any of the HD DVD stuff in my FCP setup... and does anyone else have any ideas for Vegas HD DVD work....

bring on RE5...

in any case, the reason we went with PS3 is simply due to teh fact that using the PS2 as a model, it is clearly evident that this in itself is one of major shifts in DVD acceptance across teh market. when teh PS3 hits 500bux here in aus, is when it will happen.. most likely mid to late 2008, but then a larger library will be available for BD movies as well as studios coming to terms with what the technology is capable of. As it stands not many are taking advantage of the format, let alone teh technology capable within the format.. im yet to see Doldy Digital TrueHD.. but i have seen uncompresed PCM5.1..

to be hoenst, most of my clients would opt for a PS3 in this regard, therefor, if i use the same kit my clients use, i then KNOW that my content works....
Thats all that maters to me

Yep. No matter how you slice it, a projector based system is the best of the bunch. Especially when you have people over watching a killer movie at 7 feet by 4 feet and bright as hell. There's nothing else like it and the Optima systems aren't that pricey.

Cheers

My Sanyo 32 inch 4:3 [CRT] television cost me under $400 a few years ago.

You need to get out more... :O)

I have at least 3 stores within walking distance where 32" LCDs often sell for less than $400, and these are nationwide chains.

Off axis viewing will put the audience in a narrower viewing cone because of the relatively poor off axis image of LCD.

Better LCDs (including low cost ones) show no image change over a nearly 180 degree angle.


You say you get a lot of HDTV artifacting. Is this on pure cable or satellite channels, or OTA or retransmitted local TV stations?

I see this problem on one station locally here (KDOC over the air), and when it's severe, they show the name of the culprit on the screen.

Really!

"AT&T 270 Mbps" pops up on the screen to let the viewers know that the station didn'a do it, AT&T did.

I suspect this refers to the data transmission from the station to Mt. Wilson where their transmitter is located.

he was talking about LCDTV's years ago. :)

But still.... to get the same viewing size in a 30" SDTV you need a much bigger widescreen TV (there are some HD 4:3's out there...). If they measured them the same way it would be less confusing imho, but then people would start crying fowl.

I still say my SD monitor looks nearly as good as any sub-$500 HDTV out there. Plus I get the highest SD res available. (ha ha... made a funny!).

> Johhny Roy - just wondering, since you mentioned burning HD DVD to DVDs, are you doing this all in FCP / Studio Pro, as I've done, or have you found a way to do some or all of the work / encoding / burning in Vegas and/or DVDA.

I am using Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6 Plus and for the $49 upgrade price it does an outstanding job. I render to M2T in Vegas and drop it into DVDMF6 and I can select either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray as the target. So far I've only burned HD-DVD to regular DVD's but it's been great to finally see my projects in HD. It includes menus with transitions and everything. Really great.

~jr