"Too, we need to teach (and enforce) the concept that there will be consequences to pay when the law is broken."

Problem here. Current generations download and pillage at will and no amount of educating now will change that. If education were to help this, this same generation is the ones we will count on to educate future pirates. Do as I say and not as I do? Not going to work.

Current generation thinks they have done nothing wrong and will see no need to educate the next generation as they dont feel waht they once did was illegal. The genie is out and its not going back in.

"I really don't understand why they can't come up with a "Disc Only System" (not DOS and not software) that would permit 3 copies be made from the original disc and the copies that were made could not be copied."

They have - it's called "Blu-Ray".

Why do you think that the content owners want it to become the standard?


Steve

I don't believe there is any technical way to control content, including Blu-ray, because it wont be long before someone finds a hole or some gadget to be able to play Blu-ray disks on HD DVD or a way to read Blu-ray and re transcribe to another legal format. If anything, using Blu-ray to prohibit fair-use when the public expects to archive 10 bootlegged movies on one Blu-ray disk will only drive the customers to alternative technology. There are indication of this happening already with Blu-ray supporters talking of offering dual-formats.

Now I have an idea that WILL WORK. Let's get the lazy customers off their fat good for nothing yellow kiesters and have them walk to a good old-fashioned movie theater. Don't licence films for DVD and TV!

"Let's get the lazy customers off their fat good for nothing yellow kiesters and have them walk to a good old-fashioned movie theater. Don't licence films for DVD and TV!"

Thats a pretty picture isnt it? First, I suggest convincing the theatres to drop their prices on concessions because I bet numbers have dropped because of this. I took my son the other night to see that Narnia flick and between $10 admission for me $8 for my son, $7.50 for a large popcorn, $6.00 for large pepsi, $4.50 for a small pepsi, $5.00 for a small box of m&ms, $9.00 for two hot dogs, and $8.00 for an Icee which only available in a souvineir cup I ended up spending over $50 for a couple hours of entertainment. Isnt it funny how we always end up spending more on concessions than we did to get into the movie in the first place?

Boy am I tired of "the genie is out of the bottle." Can we at least all agree to stop using that tired old phrase? By the way, in all of the genie stories the genie DOES go back in the bottle.

Anyway, I KNOW that this generation is beyond education, but that doesn't mean it's not beneficial to get the message to the next generation.

I know there are a million reasons one can give as to why content protection will never work. But somehow it must work or there won't *be* any content. There were a million reasons why man would never fly either. Besides, as I've grown tired of saying, theft doesn't have to be stopped 100% in order to be hugely beneficial. Even if the amount of theft was reduced by only 50% it would be great for all of us content producers.

"Anyway, I KNOW that this generation is beyond education, but that doesn't mean it's not beneficial to get the message to the next generation."

And just who is going to educate the next generation? The same ones that educated the current generation? Education on this will have to come from their parents on the value or morals of life. Oh wait, those are the same people who are stealing content now. here goes that idea.

"Boy am I tired of "the genie is out of the bottle." Can we at least all agree to stop using that tired old phrase? By the way, in all of the genie stories the genie DOES go back in the bottle.

Would you prefer "Horse out of the barn?" :P

Who will teach? Teachers. Tell them to include content theft as one of the things they teach their young students not to do. Remember, there are lots of things that were legal for one generation but not the next, yet the older generation was capable of teaching the younger generation not to do it.

Remember, there are

Just curious what those things were? The only thing I can think of is when alcohol was made illegal but shortly thereafter that was brought down.

j razz

Sounds like my post 2 days ago about the high cost of entertainment overall. I still think this is really a multi layered issue. One thing leads to another and really it isn't that much about file sharing. I mean if you break it down there are more CDs and DVDs being made than 20 years ago so clearly the manufacturing cost is less, so much so that most of us here can afford to make both - at home. However that lower cost is not passed onto the consumers in any way for new product....and that is what I was trying to point out with my post about the Dead, unions and why the same product will cost $29.95 in one store and $3.99 in another.

Bob made a post about "art" and how it isn't always that "art" that is being stolen - it is the product. That is brillant I think...a great way to look at it. Also though I want take it a step further and ask: how many studios have stolen someones "art"? Say I make a movie that is 5 hours long but all the studios tell me it needs to be cut to 90 minutes for them to even consider picking it up. Now if it is a "studio" film to start off with they will have even more of a say and if I don't cut it the studio takes my "art" and they redo it so it fits their "art" vision. Dune, The Man Who Fell to Earth and Das Boot all fit into this scenerio ad were all publicized in their battles to shorten run time.

How about all the musicians out there who have had to make music a certian way for the label? A drummer friend of mine worked with someone who had a song that went top 10, the movie the song was from bombed but her song was huge so she was signed to a major. They put out their first album and it did so-so...but the artist, and band, were more of a free form jam band somewhere between Sly and the Family Stone and Stevie Wonder. The label wanted some pop princess and gave them so much crap about this that they were dropped after one album. Also I always like to tell about one of my best friends - his band was on RCA because the head of RCA loved them and told an industry crowd at a trade show the year they were signed that my firends band was the best live band he had ever seen...ever. (And the head of RCA emphisized "ever") RCA was going to put full support behind them. Once the album came out RCA refused to give the band any video (Told them it was money better spent on a bigger artist at the time - Lita Ford), refused to give the band any tour support (needed more press to justify putting them out on the road), told them they needed to get more press on the East coast (but also added they could not get press there unless they played live - but remember RCA refused them tour support) and stopped pushing the "single" 3 weeks after the album hit - matter of fact RCA never even released a real "single" even though all the Albums had little stickers saying "featuring the hit single...". When it came time for the bands second album my friend went in and sort of said "Look we were promised a lot of things. Before you get anything from us you need to put, in writting, all of the things were were promised" They refused to do that. Now, many years later, the bands RCA stuff is so highly sought after it turns up on Ebay going for a lot of money. The CDs are even more rare as no one really had CD players at the time - on top of that RCA claims they took all the old stock and destroyed it. The result is that people make copies of the RCA material for their friends all the time and I have seen it out there on the net as well - but still people still seek out the real product. About 5 years ago we went to RCA and said "Too many people want to get this stuff and you stand to make money if you re-release it. Please turn over the masters to us if you are not going to do anything." RCA flat out refused to do either. The band is not making any money from ebay sales, neither is RCA - but they don't seem to care.

Lets blame P2P on this one too shall we?

(EDIT - I just looked on Ebay - someone claims to have 12 copies of the EP that RCA put out before the full album. Supposedly new CD's and still in shrink wrap - "buy it now" price(s) are $79.97)

Filmys post just emphasises what I think we all know: Artists love art, studios love money. Despite this intense thread, I believe everything we have said here is irrelevant to artists because even if pirating stooped over nigh it would only mean higher dividends to studio shareholders. Do you really think the studios would pass any of the saving on to artists? Of course not because the studios pay artists as little as they can which is quite unrelated to studio profits.

PS to pmasters: When I take the family to the movies we sneak in our own candy bars! If you think about it, this is theft from the studios too which I can fully morally justify.

gotta love this thread, getting out the popcorn to watch the festivities lol..

Hey there IS no such thing as protecting DVDs or movies, ever. Get it?

If nothing else, people who really want to pirate, will simply (a) continue to sneak camcorders into movie theatres and/or get a job there so they can rip or (b) sit there with a camcorder on a tripod aimed at a hdtv and rip the mpgs/vobs from there, then to bittorrent and pirated dvds.

So there never will be real piracy protection. Best thing is to offer extras with the silver disc (for retailers, this would be things like a poster, or print insert that's not easily copied, but still high-value)... for info marketers like me, that means things like private forum access and monthly webinars, Q&A sessions etc..

Ken

"PS to pmasters: When I take the family to the movies we sneak in our own candy bars! If you think about it, this is theft from the studios too which I can fully morally justify."

Funny story about that. I did that once and believe it or not, the usher saw my wife taking it out of her purse and the usher shined his light on us and asked us if we purchased the snack at the concession stand. My wife doesnt lie about anything even if it means trouble. So she told the usher that she purchased it before we arrived and the usher told her she needed to throw it away and then leave the theatre. She asked if he was kicking her out and the usher said yes because she broke the rules of the theatre. When she asked what rule the usher replied that any and all snacks and beverages must be purchased through the designated concession counter and she was basically stealing from the theatre by depriving them the opportunity to make money off of her.

She told the usher she was offended that he would call her a theif and he replied that if he wanted to be a real jerk, he could call the police and have her arrested for impeding the theatres right to make a profit off of her consumption of food and drink. She asked for her refund and said we were never coming back here again and naturally the usher refused and said when you break the law, you forfeit rights and money for what you paid for.

Needless to say I was livid and wanted to pound this guy. We left and never went back. Typically we go to the drive in during the sumer months and we bring pizzas, subway, etc... And not once has the drive in ever complained.

Do studios get a cut of the concessions while their movies run? Thats something I have always wondered about.

The typical money arrangements for theatres is that the distributor gets 90% of the box office while the Theatre gets 10% and the concessions. These deals vary all over the place. I remember an incident where one theatre chain bid 110% of the box office and all the other chains were livid because it would set a precedent of turning the concession money over to the distributors.

This information is about 15 years old so I don't know what the current arrangements are.

And if the studios had an online distribution model, they would keep 100% of the revenue. And think of all of the money the studios could save from having to print all of the film reels. I see the picture clearly, why dont the studios?

The studios DO see the picture. Much more clearly than you or I do.
Read the trades, see where it's all going. But it's not going to happen as fast as you think you see it. They can't just overnight say "we're going to do XYZ." They'd be sued by theatre owners six ways from Sunday.
Studios need theatres, theatres need studios. It's symbiotic. How they'll be displaying movies in the very near future is changing. But that means billions of $$ in upgrades on the part of theatres, many of which can't afford it. So, studios are currently negotiating "loans" to theatres to upgrade equipment, directors are also part of the discussion because their revenue is also on the line.
All of this is coming to fruition, but standards have had to be set (and they mostly are, now) as well as equipment purchased and installed that meets that standard. If you think for one second that theatres are going away in favor of on-line distribution....that ain't gonna happen in our lifetime. Studios need the hype generated by theatre sales, and moreover, people still enjoy the "group" experience in films, and likely always will. It's a heckuva lot more fun sitting in a theatre with a 40' screen where everyone screams, jumps, yells, gasps, and digs their fingernails into the seat at the same time as opposed to just having your partner, ringing telephone, beeping computer, and restless kids in the living room with a 36" display.
It's true that DVD revenues are starting to exceed the gate, but not by much, and that too, will dwindle a tad as new distribution methods for films start happening.

Of course cinemas can't afford it, they've been done over for so long by the studios and digital gives the studios even more control over the cinemas plus it means the distributors have a way to lock out the independant cinemas.
Cinemas are doing it very tough at the moment and I don't see anyway the patrons are going to return.
All this is very sad, it's one less thing that as DSE said we come together to enjoy. The global village we dreamed of isn't turning out to be anything like a village, we're all cocooned in our own little boxes. That's the real tragedy of P2P, not the artists going hungry, the loss of yet another thing that forces us to make contact with each other.
My last trip to a record shop was for me a bleak experience, the places are deserted, trying to hang on by flogging stuff of the lowest common denominator. The digital revolution killed off recording studios as a place where musicians hung out and now it's killed off where we go to feel the vibe of the music. Same thing is now happening with the movie industry. Even libraries now seem redundant.
Bob.

Interesting, informative, and thought provoking. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about TV or DVDs in general.

That, and the price that they want for content is the reason I just don't buy any of it any more than I absolutely have to. We own a few children's DVDs that friends and relatives have bought for my young daughter, and a few general content DVDs that we picked up at WalMart for $5.88, but not a single other copy.

It is too expensive considering that they have built-in guaranteed obsolecence. I will NOT spend a lot of money for that stuff. It just isn't good enough.

There is not a single movie that I am willing to pay anywhere near $20.00 for on DVD simply because I know that it is a DEAD END PRODUCT. I can look at it 50 times a day (if I can stand it), but that is NOT the way people look at movies. They buy it now, wait a while, and look at it again much later. The only problem is that much later it is going to NOT PLAY. The disk and equipment are all being made obsolete as fast as the techno-rich companies can force you to believe that you have to buy it.

So, I simply don't worry about it. I ignore the vast majority of it, either on TV or on DVD. Makes my life a lot simpler. AND, my daughter's idea of entertainment is for me to read her a good book. Soon, we can sit together and read different books. But we won't be watching much TV or DVD, or whatever replaces it next month.

Welcome to our digital world :)

Recording studios killed off?

Not here in L.A., there are many hundreds of them here. Not just the big names, but many smaller hole-in-the-wall type places.

Home recording has not totally replaced smaller studios as a place where you can even get some competent advice, which tends to be lacking in home studios... :O)

It's true that DVD revenues are starting to exceed the gate, but not by much...
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying, Spot, but looking at the average major studio release today, 80% of the profits from are coming from DVD sales.

Unfortunately, the talent gets a decent percentage of the theater B.O. only, while DVDs are still seen as way for the studios to pay all their expenses, leaving dinner tips to the talent that made those DVD profits possible.

Talk about having a case of bad B.O.!


L.A. seems to be more lenient about theater patrons bringing in outside stuff here, whether it's the proverbial water bottle or other things.

I'm still rejoicing over the candlelight three course dinner I enjoyed with my wife on the balcony of a major (rank 2) Westwood movie theater nearly 10 years ago. We were not alone, but the other guests were not offended, especially as we were eating quietly. We just didn't have a chance to eat before, and were too hungry to wait until after the show.

Did you hear about the major U.S. theater chain owner who just died?

His funeral will be held this upcoming Saturday at 12:10pm, 1:45pm, 3:55pm, and 5:30pm.

::O)

"His funeral will be held this upcoming Saturday at 12:10pm, 1:45pm, 3:55pm, and 5:30pm."

Special pricing for early bird viewing?

What's even more interesting is that video game sales, eg Xbox/PS2 have outdone DVD and theatre/movie sales (or at least box-office sales) ... so younger audiences want more interactivity...

DVDs allow a lot more interactivity than going to a theater, plus it's a reusable media... eg kids' DVDs have built in simple games, and there's always the deleted scenes/commentary choices for regular movies.

What I'm surprised hasn't happened as much, is more Imax/3d/VR stuff... that would get me attending, more 3d visuals, things beyond the scope of home theater.

Bottom line: as long as people's home theaters offer a comparable replacement for commercial cinemas (minus the ripoff concession prices and ticket prices), people will continue to stay at home more... biggest (7%) slump in theater history this year... largely due, I'd assume, to more people having big screen TVs (or in my case, home projection theaters) ...

The theaters need to offer a "huge jump" beyond what people can do for themselves at home. And if they can tap into the energy of the audience, PLUS have state of the art 3d/Imax technology, THEN the theater business will rebound.

Otherwise, it will be for more lower-income folks who can't afford big screen tvs/home theaters ... and with high ticket prices, it's usually cheaper to just wait 6 months and buy it for $15 at walmart rather than spend $25+ for a single viewing at a theater...

my .02,

ken

Quryous, just how fast do you think this technology disappears? I've got DVDs from 10 years ago i can still watch. I've got VHS tapes from 25 years ago that i can still watch. I've got cassette tapes from 35 years ago i can still listen to. I've got vinyl records from, well, not quite 45 years ago since i'm not quite that old, but i have records from my parents that are probably 60 years old and they still play. Heck, i've got some Edison discs from nearly 100 years ago and an Edison wind-up player that still function nicely.

As far as equipment, i can't replace the Edison player with a new unit, but players for all the other formats i mentioned are still being manufactured to some degree.