OT: Venting -- lack of disc printer choices!

Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/13/2004, 8:13 AM
Yes, I know this topic has been discussed here ad nauseam. Still, I am shocked at the total lack of choices when it comes to printers for DVDs and CDs.

There are the ink jet printers. They give poor, dull image quality (due in part to the terribly off-white coloring of the "white" printable discs) and more importantly, the image will smear. That, for me, is totally unacceptable.

Then you have thermal printers. At the bottom of the list, you have the Casio, which is very limited in it's printing capability. Then there is this quantum leap in price and function to the Primera (which has poor reviews) and Rimage thermal printers that puts them out of reach of most of us. I can't justify $2,000+ for a thermal printer. Yes, that's my problem, I know.

What's wrong with this picture...?

Ink jet R800..............$390
Ink jet R300..............$165
Casio thermal...........$120
Primera thermal........$2000
Rimage thermal........$2600

Not much to choose from, when it comes right down to it. There needs to be a printer for the prosumer/small business user. If it is to be ink jet-based, then the disc makers need to make a "bright white" printable coating (that will not fade or turn yellow), instead of the drab off-white, they're using now. The printer makers (Epson, Canon, et al), too, need to develop suitable inks--inks that are permanent, waterproof, and will not smear.

As for the thermal printers... I can't imagine why there is such a broad gap from the first choice, Casio, to the second choice, Primera/Rimage. It would seem that with a growth of DVD and CD buring these days that some enterprising group would have seen the gapping hole that exists in the disc printing world and rush in to fill that void!

Whew... now I feel better! Thanks for listening... err... reading. ;o)

J--

Comments

Jsnkc wrote on 5/13/2004, 2:19 PM
Just a few comments on this. While I do feel that there is a need for better CD printing capabilities, if you want better, you need to pay for it. You can get fantastic quality using a combination of a inkjet printer and a laminator. You can use a cheap inkjet printer like one of the epsons, but the laminators aren't cheap, I think they are around $2000-$3000. But if you use them you get a nice glossy finish that is water and smudge resistant.

Thermal printers arent that great even the high end rimage ones. We have a couple of them in our shop and the inkjet looks much better than the thermal ones.

Bottom line is if you want the best image possible you're going to have to pay for it. Inkjet printers have come a LONG way in the past 2 years and I'll assume they will get better and better. I remember when we first started out with the original Signature printer, printing at 300Dpi, took about 5 minutes to print 1 disc and the quality was crappy. Now we have 3 Signature Pro's, will do a full color label at 1200Dpi in about a minute and they look great.

90% of our clients absolutely love the inkjet printers. We don't get very dull images at all. They are far from glossy, but they aren't dull at all. maybe you need to try some diffrent media, I know that we sampled just about every brand out there and there is a HUGE diffrence between cheap media and more expensive brands.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/13/2004, 2:52 PM
LOL -- Jason, a laminator is $2500 and a speed loader is another $1250 for a total of $3750. So that doesn't make for much of a viable option!

J--
farss wrote on 5/13/2004, 2:58 PM
I agree, my clients have NO complaints about the priniting from my el cheapo inkjets and to date none of them have tried putting their DVDs in a dishwasher. Once you get into thermal printers it's not just the cost of the printer, the media is also very expensive.
And when all said and done I've yet to see anything from the pros that is that spectaularly better than what I can do. What I'm much more concerned about and so are the clients is the quality of the video on the DVD, the label is just that, a label. As I was taught from a young age, don't judge a book by its cover.
Jsnkc wrote on 5/13/2004, 3:07 PM
Like I said, if you want the best quality, you're going to have to pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it...well the whole cake and eating it analogy comes to mind. You will probably never see a quality $100 disc laminator with an autoloader.

On a side note there are places that you can bring your printed discs to and have them laminated if you don't want to invest in a laminator. But if you do millions of discs per year like we do it's pretty much a no-brainer investment.
dat5150 wrote on 5/13/2004, 3:38 PM
I bought the Epson R200($99) yesterday and printed on my first DVD today. Looks awesome! No smear/smudge and very clear print.

wolfbass wrote on 5/13/2004, 3:52 PM
Ditto Dat5150. I bought the R210 ($249 Aussie Dollars, I hate you Americans and your prices :) and it's great!

btw: Why would printing an inkjet label then laminatingthe DVD be less likely to cause problems with the DVD than applying a printed label?

Andy
JJKizak wrote on 5/13/2004, 4:38 PM
I usually use the verbatim discs and noticed that there is a big difference
between the DVD discs and the CD Rom discs. The Verbatim CD Roms have much higher gloss. I think "time" is the answer here as new compounds are
being brought into the market place.

JJK
Jsnkc wrote on 5/13/2004, 6:35 PM
The laminator is basically a thermal printer, but it does a completely clear coat instead of a colored coat. Is it a LOT thinner coat than the thickness of a paper label. I was actually really amazed at how good it looked.

One other thing I forgot to mention in regards to this statement....."The printer makers (Epson, Canon, et al), too, need to develop suitable inks--inks that are permanent, waterproof, and will not smear."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the ink has NOTHING to do with your printing being waterproof, or smearing. It's the printable surface of the disc that will cause your discs to be waterproof, not the ink. The printable surfaces of most CD's and DVD's is made from clay, when you mix clay with water what do you get.....I'm sure you guys can figure the rest out on your own. I can use waterproof ink on a piece of paper, but if I put that piece of paper in a bucket of water the ink really doesn't matter, it's the surface that it is printed on.



Taiyo Yuden have the best Inkjet printable CD's IMO, for DVD's the Verbatims are great (that's what we use) and the Maxells are good as well. The Maxells have a slighly more polished or glossy look than the Verbatims do.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/14/2004, 4:11 AM
... the ink has NOTHING to do with your printing being waterproof, or smearing...

That's not entirely true. Inks (dyes, stains, etc.) can have everything to do with permanency. If an ink, once it's dry, is truly indelible, it ain't going anywhere if water is applied. Take "magic markers" for example...

... when you mix clay with water what do you get.....I'm sure you guys can figure the rest...

I've got a pot made from clay and water. When I put it in water, guess what happens. Nothing! Making such all inclusive statements as those above are misleading and inaccurate, not that I think that was your intention.

Between the two, ink and surface, the ink's properties play a far greater role in its being indelible or not.

[Addendum] I just took an older printable disc that I had written on with a magic marker. I ran warm water over it and rubbed vigorously for nearly a minute. Nothing happened to either the ink or the "clay and water" surface. So in this "experiment" it would appear that the surface has nothing to do with permanency and the ink has everything to do with it.

J--
Jimmy_W wrote on 5/14/2004, 5:14 AM
I also tried this and got the same results. Also used printer ink on another and it failed the test. well i guess that solves that, for me anyway:)

Jimmy
riredale wrote on 5/14/2004, 9:23 AM
About 7 or 8 years ago I had HP Corvallis (Oregon) as a client, and would make weekly trips down there and spend time with many of the engineers. HP Corvallis is one of the HP sites where there is a lot of R&D into ink technology. I was surprised at how sophisticated inks are these days; it's difficult to design an ink that (1) is permanent (waterfast), (2) rich in color, (3) friendly to ink containers, (4) won't plug microscopic nozzles, (5) immune to momentary temperature spikes of maybe 500 degrees C, and (6) resistant to UV fading. The temperature requirement is in there because HP cartridges fire their inks by literally boiling the ink in a tiny chamber near the nozzle; the spike in pressure pops out an ink droplet.

Dye-based inks are typically water-soluble (can smear), while pigment inks are permanent. I can print something on my Epson C80 (pigment ink printer) and soak it in the sink--no effect. Do the same thing with my Canon or my wife's HP printers, and the paper turns into a colorful mess.

For the moment, count me in the group that relies (enthusiastically) on full-face labels. They work great for me.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/14/2004, 9:54 AM
Richard, you bring up some interesting points. Yes, inks are tricky little buggers to make when the need gets this specific. Still, I have faith the engineers to be able to solve the problem.

Relatively speaking, ink jet technology has been around for some time. I'm hoping they're working on something new as a result of the challenges you mentioned and the needs of printing on discs.

J--
craftech wrote on 5/14/2004, 12:39 PM
The lack of choices stems from trade agreements which probably skirt the perimeter of international antitrust laws but do not necessarily violate them.
The fact that Canon only sells its disc printers in Europe, but not in the United States and that TDK sells it's inexpensive thermal cd printers in Europe, but not in the United States is not an accident.
My DV editing deck was shipped to me from Japan. It is a Sony WV-DR9. It is an incredible editing deck, but not sold in the United States. It is widely believed that Sony chose not to market it here because it would undersell its more expensive broadcast video equipment line.
Welcome to America.

John
kameronj wrote on 5/16/2004, 11:28 AM
"I bought the Epson R200($99) yesterday and printed on my first DVD today. Looks awesome! No smear/smudge and very clear print."

I, too, just picked up the R200 a few days ago. I have been printing CDs all weekend. With the exception of the first one I printed....I haven't had a problem, the discs look damn good (or at the very least very much the same as they did when I used a adhesive label).

The first one turned out good too....but I was testing the drying time, and smudged it. So, technically it can be said that this disc turned out well also.

I was initially concerned about drying time....but, they got dry relatively quickly, and ran in the drives I needed them to run in without a problem.

My only other issue is.....is there ANYWAY to get rid of that little "margin" on the outside and inner rims?

Oh yeah....Dat5150, I use Photoshop and Illustrator - would you happen to use the same and know of a template I can get so I can use one of these apps for the CD design (versus the Epson CD software)?

The epson software is fine, but a little limiting.

Oh yeah....and if you can figure out if it can print Business Card CDs with the adapter...that would be kewl too.

Hit me on my


RexA wrote on 5/16/2004, 11:53 AM
>My only other issue is.....is there ANYWAY to get rid of that little "margin" on the outside and inner rims?

I assume you are using the same Epson Print CD utility I have with my R300. On the 'File' menu there is a selection for "Inner/Outer Diameter Settings." You can adjust that if your media doesn't match the default template.
RexA wrote on 5/16/2004, 12:10 PM
>Taiyo Yuden have the best Inkjet printable CD's IMO, for DVD's the Verbatims are great (that's what we use) and the Maxells are good as well. The Maxells have a slighly more polished or glossy look than the Verbatims do.

I had some copies made by a copy company recently. The printable DVDs they used have a much larger print area than most (inside dia about .9 inch). They also seem more glossy than the Riteks I have been using at home.

I ran DVD Info on one, and they are ProdiscS03 V2.2 DVD-R. Does anybody recognise this? Do you know where I could buy some to try?
dvdude wrote on 5/16/2004, 1:27 PM
That's why the UK equivalent to the Epson Stylus Photo 2200 )2100 over there) can print directly on CD/DVD but mine can't!

These printers use pigment based inks and have exceptional print life, very high resolution and with 7 separate colors (including 2 out of 3 possible blacks) produce very impressive prints, particularly for photo's.

The downside? Price (I paid $900 when these first came out) and they're very paper sensitive. The odds are probably against DVD manufacturers rushing to produce disks that take these inks properly, though you could possibly stumble on some with adequate compatibility.

I'd be interested to hear from any of the guys in the UK using this printer for DVD artwork.

I wonder if it's possible to modify a 2200 to UK spec????
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/17/2004, 4:25 AM
Rex, you can get the Prodisc media at Supermedia Store

J--
RexA wrote on 5/17/2004, 2:12 PM
Thanks for the link. I ordered some. If they look better than what I have been using on the R300, I'll post about the results.

As I mentioned, the disks that I had copied for me look more glossy than the Riteks I printed myself. I hope my results look as good when I get the Prodiscs.
Jsnkc wrote on 5/17/2004, 2:20 PM
You'll find that prodisc will be about the same as ritek, if you need a slightly more glossy look you'll have to go with Maxell
RexA wrote on 5/21/2004, 11:16 PM
Jsnkc was right. I got the Prodisc media and tried them on the Epson R300. They look about the same as the Riteks, except that they have a larger printable area (much smaller inner diameter, almost to the center hole).

The discs that I had duplicated for me were on this media, but they have a much more glossy look. I guess they either were done with a different printer technology or they were laminated after printing.
briang wrote on 5/22/2004, 2:44 AM
I'm an Aussie, and to the best of my knowledge, there was no inkjet printer capable of printing DVD's in Australia until the beginning of 2004, when Epson released the 310 which I purchased.

When I printed my first DVD I was a little dissapointed as the colours appeared to be washed out. I use Verbatim DVD media.

However, I am not sure whether it was this forum or another, someone suggested printing it first time at enhanced photo quality, and then repeating the process.

What difference!! A very acceptable finish, and I am very pleased with the results.

However, I think letting the drying process take it's due course is also important as the surface can be easily scratched, as I discovered.

If you have an urgent need to handle the disc, may I suggest you use your Wife or girlfirend's hairdryer to gently hasten the process.

Brian

farss wrote on 5/22/2004, 3:27 AM
Brian,
fellow Aussie here, I'm just about to try some SILVER inkjet printable CDs. Obviously not the best thing for photo realistic printing but might be good for some other forms of graphics. If these workout I'm going to try to convince my supplier to make some DVDs in silver or gold.

Bob
briang wrote on 5/22/2004, 4:49 PM
G'day Bob

I would be very interested to find out how you get on.

Maybe you can post your results?

Brian