OT; VISTA and MS issues-----NYTimes

Comments

John_Cline wrote on 3/10/2008, 10:45 AM
I boot up Windows, both XP and Vista64, I get work done. It does everything I ask and it doesn't crash. There are a dozen machines here with vastly different hardware and different software and they all just crank away. No problems, no drama.
Terje wrote on 3/10/2008, 10:48 AM
The NT based systems don't require DOS as a base start up... but that does not mean that DOS is not there and is not used.

For Windows NT based system, yes it does actually. The DOS subsystem in Windows NT is used if, and ONLY if, you run either DOS software on NT under emulation or sixteen bit Windows software. You can check if you do in the Windows NT/2000/XP/Vista task list, if you have Windows 16 subsystem running, you are, or have been running DOS/Win16 based software. If not, no DOS code whatsoever has been run on your box.

www.infocellar.com/winxp/DOS-with-XP.htm

This is an interesting article that details the commonalities between DOS and the Windows NT/2000/XP command line. They look similar. They have a lot of the same commands. They have nothing but the looks in common. When you open a "DOS" window on 32 or 64 bit Windows, there is no DOS whatsoever involved.

From the article:
Unlike Win95 and 98, Windows ME and XP does not first load an MS-DOS operating system, and then run Windows on top of it.

This is absolutely correct. Windows ME and Windows XP doesn't load DOS first and then start Windows. That doesn't mean that they are similar though. Windows ME is based on the Windows 98 code-based, but it loads the Windows subsystem directly on startup. There is a big however though. Windows ME does use DOS code for a large number of tasks. What Microsoft did with Windows ME was to take the DOS part and bootstrap it into the Windows code (technically this statement is wrong, but as an illustration it works) and boot Windows ME on top of that DOS bootstrap. In reality they only hid the fact that DOS was used as the underpinning of Windows ME.

This is not the case with Windows NT/XP/2000. You do not need DOS in WIndows XP any more than you need it on the Mac. Windows 95/98/ME will not function, run or start withouth the DOS code. They will not be able to load them selves, access memory, load drivers etc. In other words, Windows 95/98/ME is a nice GUI on top of DOS. In Windows XP as an operating system there is no DOS whatsoever. Nowhere. In the same way that there is no DOS in OSX, Unix, AIX or System/Z for that matter.

In other words Windows ME is lumped into the same category as XP

In an article written for, and seemingly by people with no particular technical inclination or understanding. Windows ME and WIndows XP are two entirely different operating systems in the same way that Windows ME and OSX are two different operating systems. They look alike, but I can get my Linux box to look like Windows and run DOS software too. That doesn't mean that it has DOS anywhere.

as the windows systems progressed over the years, they begin to break away from the DOS dependency

This makes it sound like it was a gradual process. It was not. When Microsoft released their 32 bit offering, called Windows NT 3.1 in it's first incarnation, alter 3.5, then 3.51 (best one ever), 2000, XP and VIsta, they made a clean break with DOS. In this line of operating systems there are none DOS underpinnings whatsoever. Not even a slight trace of it. Clean break, DOS is never to be seen again in this product line ever. That is still the case.

In parallel Microsoft maintained their 16 bit offering and slowly tried to make it more palatable and also 32 bit compatible. This offering was a GUI riding on top of a DOS underpinning in the same way that Windows 3.1 was. They slowly merged the two, but the underlying basis for the operating system was, and remained, DOS. That product line you know as Windows 95/98/ME. They share almost nothing at all in common with Windows 2000/XP except for the user interface (which I can get for Linux too, sort of).

But this doesn't mean that DOS is gone

So, are you saying that DOS lives underneath Mac OSX somewhere? OSX and Windows 2000/XP/Vista have exactly the same dependency on DOS. As does AS400.
Terje wrote on 3/10/2008, 11:08 AM
David Cutler once walked into a high-level meeting at Digital Equipment Corp. wearing a T-shirt that read, You're Screwing Me!

Thanks for that article. It reminds me of all the fun there was back then. Cutler is an excellent engineer, and it surprises me to see that he has been involved in the mess that is Vista. I see he now has moved on, perhaps that is not surprising. I guess it's soon time for his retirement.

XP and OS/2 was the fun back then. OS/2 had a fantastic user interface, and IBM was almost able to kill NT with OS/2 Warp, probably the best OS UI combination besides NeXT ever. Sadly that is now gone and we have to live with Vista in some form or another in the future (I am hanging on to my XP for dear life). Perhaps, 10 years or so from now, Microsoft will have learned what IBM tried to do with Warp and OOUIs. Probably not.
nedski wrote on 3/10/2008, 2:26 PM

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DrLumen reply to my comment:
"From other articles I have read about the chocolate mess known as vista, the OEM's were doing development on Vista drivers based on the betas and specs M$ had released for the drivers. Then at the last minute, M$ changed parts of the WDM to make room for changes to MP11 and a different DRM structure. This broke many of the drivers that were in development effectively burning the OEM's with developments costs that could not be recovered and making them start from scratch. I don't believe it's the OEM's fault because M$ can't make up their (collectively lost) mind."

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Well, if Microsoft did that, shame on them!
Bad, bad Microsoft.... bad, badder, baddest DRM!

However, I'd like to know how all that screwing up affected the usability of PC's shipped with Vista installed?

Is it really only the "upgraders" that have lots of problems?