Photo burst: what is the ideal duration per photo to simulate film?

bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 6:23 AM

I am trying to get my head around something: I have quite a few photo collections taken in burst (usually birds), according the specs my camera (Sony RX10m4) can shoot at 24 pictures per second according to spec.

Now I was thinking that placing those consecutive photos on the Vegas timeline (25FPS project as I am in a PAL country) this is best done by limiting each photo duration to 1 frame, as to be more or less achieve 25 FPS. However when I play the timeline, I find this to feel like it is to fast (it feels like a speed up).

When I increase each photo to a 5 Frames duration, the speed feels natural and more or less right.

My question is, how can this be? Given the fact the photos where shot at 1/1600s it is not the shutter speed which is at fault.

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Comments

mark-y wrote on 8/17/2024, 6:48 AM

Are you using File->Open->Image Sequence command?

Dexcon wrote on 8/17/2024, 7:02 AM

... when I play the timeline, I find this to feel like it is to fast (it feels like a speed up)

Back in analogue days, this was always the case with filmed US TV series (NTSC 24 fps) played on a telecine on TV in Australia (PAL 25 fps) - there was about a 4% increase in speed and also a slight audio pitch increase.

With your 1 frame duration approach, would changing the velocity in Vegas Pro to 96% possibly with Optical Flow activated make any difference to the end result?

When I increase each photo to a 5 Frames duration, the speed feels natural and more or less right.

That is indeed curious given that back in the days of silent movies, hand-cranked cameras were cranked at about 16 fps because it was thought at the time to be the fps rate where the human eye first perceived smooth motion in a film. But if 5 fps works, go with it.

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bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 7:12 AM

Are you using File->Open->Image Sequence command?

No, never thought about that one, I will try it out.

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bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 7:25 AM

Are you using File->Open->Image Sequence command?

No, never thought about that one, I will try it out.


@mark-y I cannot find Image Sequence command...

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bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 7:35 AM

@Dexcon

With your 1 frame duration approach, would changing the velocity in Vegas Pro to 96% possibly with Optical Flow activated make any difference to the end result?

Pretty hard to do as all photos are a cut by themself and cannot change the velocity -unless I render first- which I do not want to do, as this would mean rendering a second time when delivering the project (with loss of quality)

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bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 7:44 AM

Maybe one possible reason I could think is that my camera does not really achieve the maximum 24 FPS on photo bursts as advertised, then it would make sense that 5 frames duration per photo is more or less natural, or it could be I am getting old and my brain is not as fast as it used to be 😃

Anyway, I have no way to figure out the real burst speed the camera has used. The timestamps of the photo only go to the second, and are all the same...

Last changed by bitman on 8/17/2024, 7:47 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Dexcon wrote on 8/17/2024, 7:56 AM

I think that the media on the timeline will be each checked as 'Use Project Resample Mode' when R clicking on those events' properties. This means that in File/Properties if the Resample Mode is selected as 'Optical Flow', all video events on the timeline will have Optical Flow applied.

Re velocity. all that needs to be done is to change the velocity on one event, copy (Ctrl-C) that event and then select all the other video events on the timeline and R click, select 'Selectively Paste Event Attributes', check 'Video event velocity envelopes' and then hit OK. All highlighted video events will then have the velocity envelope applied - no need to render first.

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john_dennis wrote on 8/17/2024, 8:27 AM

@bitman

Image Sequence

bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 8:57 AM

@Dexcon Thanks, I'll check on that.

In the mean time I just found out (at least in my case) why 5 frames each long photo duration in the Vegas timeline looks natural when played on the RX10 m4, I found out that the advertised 24 fps is achievable, but needs to be set!

According to spec on the web (in Duch) :

Continu fotograferen Hi: ca. 24 fps, continu fotograferen Mid: ca. 10 fps, continu fotograferen Lo: ca. 3,5 fps

And guess what I checked my camera and it was currently set to Mid, for burst photo shots, so it only took photos at a speed of 10 FPS, I am not sure what the setting was when I took the pictures, but I am guessing it was also 10fps...

This means with 10 FPS I need to make the duration 2.5 frames long to achieve a natural 25FPS, (I actually cannot make 2.5 frames, so I have to choose a duration of 2 or 3 frames) at least I understand now why 5 frame duration looks more natural (and not so sped up) than 1 Frame duration....

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bitman wrote on 8/17/2024, 9:34 AM

@john_dennis Thanks, I had trouble making it work, because apparently the photos need to be renamed to a specific name like IMG_000xx, so my photos required a renaming ...

After renaming, the import as a sequence video file worked, but I noticed that it still does not fit my needs as each still was made into a 1 frame, which is to fast. My method (just importing separate stills) as I took the stills as a 10 FPS burst, requires around 2.5 frames, say 3 frames each works best on a 25FPS project...

APPS: VIDEO: VP 365 suite (VP 22 build 194) VP 21 build 315, VP 365 20, VP 19 post (latest build -651), (uninstalled VP 12,13,14,15,16 Suite,17, VP18 post), Vegasaur, a lot of NEWBLUE plugins, Mercalli 6.0, Respeedr, Vasco Da Gamma 17 HDpro XXL, Boris Continuum 2025, Davinci Resolve Studio 18, SOUND: RX 10 advanced Audio Editor, Sound Forge Pro 18, Spectral Layers Pro 10, Audacity, FOTO: Zoner studio X, DXO photolab (8), Luminar, Topaz...

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Gid wrote on 8/17/2024, 10:06 AM

@bitman Hi, what happens when you import the sequence you change the properties to 10fps & then drag it onto the timeline click - Do not adjust?

PS. my timeline was 1920x1080 29.97, I thought it was UHD but I've just reset VP & it doesn't matter for this as your project will be whatever it is that you have chosen .

Last changed by Gid on 8/17/2024, 10:10 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Gid wrote on 8/17/2024, 10:30 AM

unless I render first- which I do not want to do

@bitman I find this one interesting, no idea if it will be of any use.

  • Add your files to the timeline 1 image per frame, Save that project.
  • Projects can be added to the trimmer.
  • Create a region & choose Fit to Fill at the bottom of the Trimmer window.
  • The project is still intact as a nested project.

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Boris Optics,
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At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro Hero11 Black

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

 

mark-y wrote on 8/17/2024, 10:32 AM

Are you using File->Open->Image Sequence command?

No, never thought about that one, I will try it out.


@mark-y I cannot find Image Sequence command...


@bitman

 It's just like any other Menu Item File->Open->Image Sequence should be in every version of Vegas.

3POINT wrote on 8/17/2024, 11:09 AM

After renaming, the import as a sequence video file worked, but I noticed that it still does not fit my needs as each still was made into a 1 frame, which is to fast.

Import 10fps image sequence as image sequence into 25fps project. Stretch the image sequence to 40% (slowdown) and let do optical flow the rest.

zzzzzz9125 wrote on 8/17/2024, 11:11 AM

 hanks, I had trouble making it work, because apparently the photos need to be renamed to a specific name like IMG_000xx, so my photos required a renaming ...

@bitman Assuming that you can't batch rename your files, so in addition to the image sequence method mentioned above, you can also select these events, group them by pressing G, and then hold down Ctrl to stretch them.

However, if you're able to generate suitable names in some way, I recommend using the image sequence method. Image sequence will be considered one single media file, which makes it easy to set its framerate.

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bitman wrote on 8/18/2024, 4:42 AM

I will tag my camera setting as a solution, as this was the root cause of my issue and headache...

But thanks all for the replies, I have it pretty much under control now (especially the "why" my image sequence was playing to fast with 1 frame per image - due to my camera setting!)

I find the method of renumbering (I downloaded and use Bulk rename utility now, although a bit overkill for me with all the possibilities, bells and whistles) and importing as a image sequence a bit tedious (although neat to work with once it is imported, thanks for reminding this method, I used it a long time ago, but forgot about it.)

Some remarks: importing an image sequence a 10fps interval photos (with 10fps import, but not overruling 25fps as first media) into 25fps project resulted in sometimes in 3 frames per image, sometimes 2 frames (I guess 25P/10 is 2.5 which either 2 frames or 3 frames...)

@3POINT

Import 10fps image sequence as image sequence into 25fps project. Stretch the image sequence to 40% (slowdown) and let do optical flow the rest.

stretching an image sequence via ctrl resulted in increasing the number of frames per image, no optical flow...

@zzzzzz9125

Indeed, I use G group and U ungroup and ctrl stretch all the time.

When not using the image sequence import method, so just a bunch of stills on the timeline to have fluent video, I use a script I wrote to set selected events to the desired duration, in seconds or in frames, and it is one of my second most used scripts, (only surpassed by my other script "select all after cursor" to move stuff so I can insert stuff without using ripple)

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3POINT wrote on 8/18/2024, 5:22 AM

To activate optical flow go to project settings or switch to optical flow for resampling method at event settings. As a long time Vegas user, I supposed you know how to do that.

Last changed by 3POINT on 8/18/2024, 5:28 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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bitman wrote on 8/18/2024, 7:15 AM

@3POINT 

To activate optical flow go to project settings or switch to optical flow for resampling method at event settings. As a long time Vegas user, I supposed you know how to do that.

Indeed, but any optical flow on the subject I had was to wonky on a burst of photos (10 per second) of a raven in flight shot from above in the mountains of Austria, all the pine trees in the background warped constantly like you were drunk! I even tried the new BCC+Retimer ML from Boris which does not use optical flow but some new AI hocus pocus for slomo or speed up, was wonky as well!

I should have used continuous fast in my camera which would yielded 14 phots per second, but hey that's life!

Visually, 2 or 3 frames per image in my case without optical flow looked best, albeit it is more an artistic style than natural 😄

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3POINT wrote on 8/18/2024, 10:52 AM

Ofcourse you cannot turn a 10fps recording exactly looking as a 25fps recording. Also you cannot turn a HD recording into a real 4k recording, as some AI software makes you believe. Best is always to record directly in the framerate and resolution you need.