Cliff you seem to be forever choosing your NLE! :) So many questions in one rather meandering post, which is why you probably haven't had any answers. I'll try and answer a few things...

Graphics cards... I am running an AMD HD6970 and an NVIDIA GTX580 in the same machine without any problems. To be honest the NVIDIA is more or less dormant at the moment. I have 3 monitors all plugged into the AMD (one of them being a DisplayPort monitor) and I'm using the AMD for Vegas Pro acceleration too. The NVIDIA was there for testing and in case I need CUDA for MC AVC rendering, Adobe etc.. These cards were chosen specifically for their proven performance with Vegas. I bought them both on eBay. I may replace one or both with one or two R9 290X cards if I need to when my 4K editing ramps up, as I understand that may improve 4K performance on the timeline. For you, it sounds like getting an HD6970 for cheap off eBay is a good move.

Likewise I would say that refurb machines that were state of the art a year or two ago may be good value for working with DSLR footage in Vegas Pro if you're not doing 4K yet. 16GB may well be enough. 32GB certainly will be.

Bins... There are bins in Vegas Pro. Personally I almost never use them. There are other things that might help you out such as nested projects and now media tagging.

Gamma shift... I think you are referring to the fact that Vegas works in computer levels unlike other levels that work in video levels. The way to deal with it to learn to use and understand the video scopes, learn what levels your camera is shooting at, and if necessary apply one or more of various FX at event, track or master bus level to adjust your luminance accordingly. Personally I use color curves to get my blacks to 16 and my whites 35 and apply what other colour correction I want at the same time. Other FX can do it more quickly but with less control.

You should also put a 16,16,16 "legal black" generated media track under your video track so that transparency (fades, dissolves etc.) in the video track works correctly.

Intermediates... Using intermediates for the sake of avoiding banding may well be a red herring. It might be due to your monitor, your gpu, your preview settings etc. and may not show itself in the final delivery. Take some footage right through to your completed delivery medium both with and without converting to intermediates and compare them. Vegas works in RGB internally and in my experience operates in terms of quality loss due to FX etc. as if you are working on an uncompressed intermediate without actually creating one. Others' experience may differ. I edit native footage as much as I can and only go to an intermediate if I really have to or if I'm changing framerate/resolution and want to do further work after the conversion at final framerate/resolution. I usually use UT Video Codec lossless intermediates. For near-lossless intermediates, check out Canopus HQ and AVID DNxHD codecs as free alternatives to Cineform.

The lack of support, bug-fixing and basic improvements for Vegas is sad and annoying, but I still use it and recommend it. Once you get used to mousewheel zoom, uninterrupted playback when saving etc., super-easy transitions, no media "conforming", great audio features, all the add-on functionality of scripting etc... these things you would likely miss if you went back to Premiere.

I would add just one thing if gamma change, correction for gradients etc are an issue then your best digital intermediate at this time is magicyuv. I would choose Sony MXF or Cineform as better intermediates for less demanding compositing.

@Nick - not so much forever searching for an NLE, just having this gut sense that by sticking with PPro CS6, I"m going to find the limitations in the near future when I eventually make the jump to newer acquisition tools. Vegas Pro has my attention for the first time in quite awhile hence asking so many questions - I should have broken them up into separate topics but it was a running thought and I just kept typing.

Alot of the marketing hype over the latest and greatest hardware is even more confusing given the never ending "advances" in CPU's and graphics cards. I hear/read one thing, then see it refuted in other places. I read of past die hard Vegas users jumping ship completely to the Mac - Like @JohnnyRoy even though he uses Vegas via WMWare on his mac.

I ask the questions I do because I"m more or less finding myself being pushed towards Vegas Pro by the very companies that now want to charge what I feel is a monthly/yearly ransom, and TBH, I'm wanting to make sure that I dont' cast pearls before swine by moving back to Vegas Pro and regretting it after the fact. It was a steep learning curve for me when I first moved to PPro and having worked in it now for the past 2-3 years has set certain habits in place that will take time to unlearn since the methodology of Vegas is not like the Industry norm post production process. In addition many of the Red Giant plugins I use in PPro will no longer be available to me in Vegas (Denoiser II, Instant 4K, LUT Buddy, Colorista II, etc) - that in itself is a consideration.

The example on Bins - I use them all the time in PPro to help keep my assets organized, albeit it's not a true use of Bins the way Avid uses them. Again a deviation of how an NLE works from one to another.

I use Adobe Media Encoder extensively as I can send my timeline to AME and go back to PPro and keep working on other projects while it's rendering or I can wait til I'm done for the day and then start up AME and render everything in Que - something I don't' see Vegas doing out of the box.

I'm curious about media tagging as opposed to Bins in Vegas - any links/references to how that works?

TBH - I'm left with more questions than answers to settling on my post production tools for the future. As you said, "the lack of support, bug-fixing and basic improvements for Vegas is sad and annoying..." For me it's more than annoying, it's cost me money in the past and probably the biggest reason why I've been asking so many questions and still feeling hesitant in committing to it. The fact JohnnyRoy is editing in FCPX more than Vegas was kind of the lynch pin for me.

Maybe I'll quit over analyzing this and just make the switch but I'm busy with paying client projects and don't want to commit to a Vegas from Premiere Pro and find I made a mistake.

I have been flat out capturing and editing end of year concerts for the last few weeks. I do 5 cam multi angle shoots and my workflow in Vegas is pretty bullet proof. I know I can, and will, cut and CC a 4 hour concert in about 2 days.
The other afternoon I was getting in front and thought, "Ill do the second half of this one in Premiere".
After an hr or so of what felt like punching myself in the head I scrapped it and went back to Vegas, again, like I always do.
No doubt it is my ineptness at using Premiere, and that using Vegas just feels natural to me.

The best things in Vegas for me-
-Dragging crossfades
-0-255 levels. I dont care what anyone says. I like to see what I am doing to the full range of my footage. Just used to it I guess.
- 3 way CC that doesn't take up half your monitor.
-Nesting (kill the generating of sfap files and it would be perfect) Are sfap files really necessary?
-Scripting
-Manipulating audio files
-Send to Handbrake from timeline. The man who made this is genius.

Things Vegas should do-
-Have a render queue. Like Cliff said, queue in Premiere is awesome.
-Paste event attributes with a little checkbox pop up. Want all... tick all boxes. Just want CC but not Pan crop... No problem, untick it. Would be so good
-Right click in Project media to transcode ( or send to queue). I dont want to have 5 instances of Vegas open to transcode my media.
-Background render by importance, while im cutting I want to use my CPU, when I get a coffee Vegas can use as much CPU as it wants to render in the background.
-Fix Cineform issues. Cineform is fine in all other programs, why the issues in Vegas. Cineform to Cineform is always ok, but Cineform to mpg2 I still get random black sections.

There are some rambling thoughts while waiting for a render :)

Cliff,

I've actually been heading the other direction. I'm using CS6 more and more and am not worried about limitations any time soon (no plans to move to the "Slave Cloud" either). I'm using an EX1, Canon 60d and AX100. I also find it runs better on my system because of the Mercury Playback engine. Vegas GPU is unreliable and sometimes causes me rendering problems so I leave it off. I also find the bins in Premiere much better and Vegas has a nasty habit of causing problems when using bins on long form projects with lots of clips. I do like the speed of Vegas for many things but the more I learn Premiere the more I appreciate the logic of the way it works. I'm using an Nvidea 570 card and my i7 computer with 24gb ram is a couple of years old.

I still use both programs but don't see myself outgrowing Premiere anytime soon. And since Vegas gets so little in the way of new developments I'm taking a wait and see approach.

@Marc S - You more or less spoke what my gut feeling has been the whole time. PPro CS6 just works - no issues with Cineform, no issues with other codecs. IT doesnt' do audio so well, but I can live with that.Any nVidia card you give it and edit the CUDA install text file with the card model, save it and start up PPro - it sees it and get back to work. In addition, I've found that Audition does more for me in post than Sound Forge and Adobe's stated that they are committed long term to CS6 so that was somewhat a relief (albeit that position could change at any time)

Your computer probably specs out very similar to mine. I'm in the process of upgrading to 24GB Ram (the max on my EVGA x58 SLI3 mobo), a faster hex core processor (Xeon X5680/X5690), a newer nVidia card (GTX570/580 or even newer) and a proper Raid array (4-6TB external Raid) to handle longer form projects using Cineform or MagicYUV intermediates. CUDA reliably works in Premiere Pro - from what I've read, not so much in Vegas Pro.

I detest all this tech stuff but it's the nature of the biz I guess.

I've come to the conclusion after all my research that there are more pro's than cons by staying with Premiere Pro CS6 for me. I was hoping otherwise but such is not the case is my findings.

Paste event attributes with a little checkbox pop up. Scroll down to my user name in this thread, and copy/paste the script I posted. I think you'll find that it does what you want:

MultiFXAssigner_10.js

Probably a good idea Cliff. Let's wait and see if Adobe backs down from their unreasonable position and if Sony continues to develop Vegas (Vegas 13 was a disappointment when it came to new features). I'm also keeping an eye on Resolve which had some really nice editing updates with the latest version and amazing color correction capability. The only problem is that is seems to need a really beefy system to run well.

By the way I found that if I open an audio clip in audition from the premiere timeline and then close it I can click edit original and it will open the file in sound forge. I like this since I still find Audition very difficult to move around in compared to sound forge. Gotta love the way Sony products use mouse zoom.

@Marc S - In Premiere Pro, holding down the alt key will let you zoom in on the timeline. Just make sure you click on the timeline again to get back to the default of working as it can cause issues when trying to scroll again. I"m still debating Vegas but as it stands now, PPro is my bread and butter NLE (Cest le vie)

Thanks I've used that but it does not zoom like Vegas (at least not with my mouse). It's kind of a tortured version of the Vegas zoom which is part of what makes moving around the timeline so fast in Vegas. Plus shft/ctrl modifiers in Vegas are really nice.

@Mark S - I'm sure but the stability of Premiere Pro has me sticking with it. I wish it were otherwise but I can't afford the down time when I have paying gigs happening weekly.

I'm curious about media tagging as opposed to Bins in Vegas - any links/references to how that works?

It's like a mini media manager at project level. Personally I don't use it but I can that it's useful to some.

may give you some of the functionality you are looking for.

Does CS6 support 4K? I guess 4K may be the point at which you are forced to switch to another NLE. But by that point I wouldn't be surprised if new versions of Vegas Pro are on a subscription model too.

"Does CS6 support 4K? I guess 4K may be the point at which you are forced to switch to another NLE. But by that point I wouldn't be surprised if new versions of Vegas Pro are on a subscription model too."

Yes and no. I can import my AX100 4k footage and use it in a 1080p project but I cannot export 4k using the X-AVCs format. Not sure if I can edit a 4k project since I have not worked on any yet even in Vegas. I'm using 4k for the zoom factor right now. I read that Adobe decided not to support exporting X-AVCs because it was released a few months after CS6. Another way of trying to force people to the slave cloud.

@Nick Hope and @Marc S - CS6 does support R3D 4k, but nothing else it seems. And that's the lynch pin for me - right now I have no use for it, but given that CS6 will probably never support newer 4k material, it's a matter now of determining which way to go. I've not abandoned Vegas Pro, but I need to let it sit on the back burner until I am done with the paid gigs I have currently.

Having said that - with the recent threads around MagicYUV supporting full 4k in an AVI wrapper, that might be one way of doing post for more serious projects. Cineform can also export 4K material, but it seems that import into CS6 is another matter altogether - and the reason for my initial inquiries about post production workflow as 4k is not a matter of IF but WHEN.

I'm almost done with this weeks post production work and then I can spend some time exploring Vegas Pro more. Trying to stay positive about the decision to move but so far not so much. When you have to rely upon these tools for your livelihood, it takes on a different meaning/greater importance compared to those who do this part time or as hobbyists.

I'm editing my last paid gig for the week and wanted to bump this thread to ask more questions and hopefully receive responses to read throughout the weekend - not sure if I should post as individual threads or not so chime in if you think I should.

1) Given that SCS has removed all training references to the Certification program, how can I learn more about creating a proper professional post production workflow in Vegas Pro? There are plenty of resources for Premiere Pro on this subject - a Vegas Pro workflow that equates to a consistent post workflow that creates a standardized methodology for managing all assets, editing and renders?

2) I've not determined which 4K camera I'm going to be looking at for possible purchase next year but having said that, What's the bare minimum hardware specs I can use to edit? Given my overwhelmed quad core Xeon processor more or less fails at even one stream of test footage from a Red camera - my understanding is the bottle neck is hard drive data throughput follwed by GPU power when editing native 4k footage - am I correct on this?

3) Am I applying a band aid by using a Radeon 6970 for the time being and will it handle anything more than 1080p footage natively? @OldSMoke as stated the R9 290 cards are the way to go in Vegas Pro when editing 4K footage - I'm trying to plan some of my EOY purchases.

4) If a new computer isn't feasible (having to choose between a new 4k camera or computer) - it appears going the proxy/intermediate route is the solution for working with 4K - It seems the 2 viable options are Cineform or MagicYUV - pro's and con's of each?

5) My research indicates setting up an internal raid5 for editing if possible (mine would be a 3 disk Raid5 array (3x2TB)) followed by a Raid0 (2x2TB) if Raid5 can't be done in conjunction with a disciplined back up strategy to external rotated single HD's - thoughts or opinions?

I'm sure I'll have more questions but figured I'd get the ball rolling and hopefully receive some responses on this.

TIA

I'll have a go at 3 and 4:

3) Am I applying a band aid by using a Radeon 6970 for the time being and will it handle anything more than 1080p footage natively? @OldSMoke as stated the R9 290 cards are the way to go in Vegas Pro when editing 4K footage - I'm trying to plan some of my EOY purchases.

My HD6970 will play back 4K GH4 footage without FX smoothly at Best (full), and that is while it is driving all 3 of my monitors. One of them is connected by a DisplayPort cable, the others by DVI. A 2nd hand HD6970 is going to be a lot cheaper than a new R290 or 290X. It only supports monitor resolution up to 2560 x 1600, so it won't support a 4K monitor, but it's a cracking card for HD.

I haven't yet studied how many FX need to be applied before playback slows down, but I'm optimistic about getting serious 4K work done with it while monitoring at less than full 4K resolution.

4) If a new computer isn't feasible (having to choose between a new 4k camera or computer) - it appears going the proxy/intermediate route is the solution for working with 4K - It seems the 2 viable options are Cineform or MagicYUV - pro's and con's of each?

I haven't used Cineform for ages, and I've never used a paid Cineform product, but this is how I understand it:

MagicYUV
+ Lossless
+ Free
- Larger files
- More stuttery playback as FX etc. are applied (I assume)
- No public 10-bit version (yet)

Cineform
- Lossy
- Not free
+ Smaller files
+ Less stuttery playback as FX etc. are applied (I assume)
+ 10-bit version available
+ Cineform GoPro Studio comes with its own color adjustments that can be stored as active metadata in the files without having to render

As a free alternative to Cineform you could also look at the Grass Valley (Canopus) codecs. Read up here.

A while ago I established a proxy workflow for getting some 4K production done on my ancient Q6600 computer. You can adapt it to your situation.

So many codecs. So little time.

@Nick Hope - Had a chance to edit one of my paid gigs this past week in Vegas Pro. Taking the chance it would not have issues and given it had audio that was in serious need of cutting together, I opted to try Vegas Pro to see just how well it would work for me.

All I can say is WOW! I had forgotten Vegas Pro's roots in audio. I was able to cut audio more efficiently than I ever could have in Premiere Pro. Having done the audio editing, I moved on to adding video clips to the timeline. That took a little getting use to as my PPro habits kicked in and I had to use the ctrl-Z feature alot to undo and spent alot more time right clicking on things. Color correcting was actually more efficient for me - at least for this particular project.

Having gotten this project put to bed quickly, now I"m left with some additional questions:

1) I'm rethinking the 4K camera choice and now considering the Blackmagic 4K Production Camera. Since it shoots CinemaDNG, what's the best workflow option for Vegas Pro? Given that camera Choice, I'm guessing a look at the R9 290/290x card is inevitable. The camera won't be purchased til some time next year so I have some time on the R9 card and I'm thinking for now just getting the used 6970 per yours and @OldSmoke's recommendation for editing in Vegas Pro. From the sounds of it, the 6970 can handle the 4K footage while cutting, and maybe applying some basic effects, but doesn't handle driving a 4K monitor - correct?

2) I"m still up in the air about computer hardware upgrades right now to prepare for the move as I'm in no position to go with a current dual cpu workstation to edit native 4K footage (The Promax workstations have me drooling). So I'm assuming that some sort of a proxy workflow should be considered. MagicYUV hasn't gotten back to me at all on my request to test their 10 bit version so I'm left with the feeling it's going to have to be Cineform unless you think something else is a better solution. Maybe @VideoITguy will chime in on that part. I may spring for GOPRO STUDIO PREMIUM given it's a mature product with actual tech support and supports higher resolutions above 1080p.

I'm still doing a crash course in researching as my EOY expenditures need to happen soon.

From the sounds of it, the 6970 can handle the 4K footage while cutting, and maybe applying some basic effects, but doesn't handle driving a 4K monitor - correct?

Correct. It only supports 2560x1600 resolution. But it handles basic 4K OK. My inspiration for getting this card was JohnnyRoy's thread, I found the best graphics card for Vegas Pro 12.0. Have a read of that.

Personally I am unclear on exactly which more recent AMD cards are better or worse for Vegas than that one, other than reading that the R9 290 and 290X are faster. It's a minefield. The big name change in AMD GPUs doesn't help, since some of the "new" ones (RX XXX) seem to simply be renamed "old" ones (HD XXXX).

If you get an HD 6970 then be sure to install a later version of AMD Catalyst than 14.9. There was a serious issue with that on my PC (can't remember the details) and version 14.9.1 beta fixed it.

I'm left with the feeling it's going to have to be Cineform unless you think something else is a better solution

I think you might be right. DNxHD is out because it doesn't go beyond 1080p. I just did some testing on the Grass Valley HQX codec and added it to my test results on this thread. It does 4k and I have read that it is 10-bit, but Mediainfo is only reporting 8-bit on my rendered files. Anyone know if it really does 10-bit, and how to render to 10-bit in Vegas?

I found, I *think*, a deeper bit-depth setting than 8-bit in the Quicktime .mov version of Canopus HQX. Previously I was using the VFW .avi version. I don't know how to verify if the output is 10-bit or more. But anyway it gives me a gamma/luminance shift and should be avoided. The configuration window takes absolutely ages to appear too, and does weird things. I hate Quicktime.

So I looked further into 4k 10-bit lossless and near-lossles codecs.

The "UtVideo Pro YUV422 10bit VCM" codec won't render at all for me. I don't know why.

Sony 10-bit YUV codec is lossless (with some very tiny shifts in the waveform which I think are negligible errors), but the files are huge and playback isn't great.

Sony XAVC Intra is amazing. It's 10-bit and lossy, but not very lossy, and the files are very small in comparison to others and the playback is very fast. I'd like to see it compared to Cineform.

See my table of results in this thread.

Seriously though Cliff, think about editing native footage on the timeline. One of the advantages that Vegas has always had over other NLEs is that it is generally very good at handling native footage including long-GOP formats (except GoPro, which is sluggish in VP12 & 13). Transcoding is often not required, and that can be difficult for users of some other NLEs to get their head around.

[I]Sony XAVC Intra is amazing.[/I]

Finally! Somebody else said it! I have mentioned it a couple of times that it is a great codec. Not only that, it smart renders too. I also find that the XAVC Intra files in the MXF container perform a bit better on the timeline compare the XAVC-S, maybe because there is less compression. It feels like a further development of HDCAM SR 422 that was stuck at 1080i but did 444. The issue with XAVC and XAV-S is that there is little to no control over the output in the render settings.

Re 1), the BMD production camera recording 4K CinemaDNG:

Doing that will use up quite a lot of SSD.

Some things we've discovered about this camera:

1) It uses a fair amount of power. Ours runs off brick batteries.
2) It has air holes in the bottom. Mount it directly to a release plate and you could toast the camera.
3) You really need an EVF. We're using a Cineroid.

All of the above means you'll easily double the asking price to get a functional camera and even then it's fine for shooting set pieces but even power up is slow, swap a SSD and wait and wait... Adding all that also means you have a pretty heavy rig before you put any glass on the front. Awesome pictures with the Canon Cine Primes on the front though.

Bob.