Preview looks way over bright and contrast, but there are no Fx

michael-leonard wrote on 5/4/2018, 1:36 PM

So I've got a new one that has me stumped.

Here is what I see...

The clips on the left look exactly as I expect them too, and the preview (in multicam) is WAY over bright and the contrast is through the roof. I know for 100% that the look of the clips in the media bin is correct, I shot several interviews that day without touching the camera settings. AND I have already edited the other interviews, and none of them appeared this way.

I'm guessing that somehow I goofed a setting that is making the preview look off, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Any thoughts out there? I have no idea how I'm going to grade this mess the way it currently appears.

Comments

Marco. wrote on 5/4/2018, 1:43 PM

Set your project's pixel format to 8 bit.

Red Prince wrote on 5/4/2018, 2:26 PM

Any thoughts out there? I have no idea how I'm going to grade this mess the way it currently appears.

The first thing I do with each new project is turn off ACES (and Marco, I use the 32-bit pixel format, why on Earth would anyone in the 21st Century use 8 bits?). Vegas has the obnoxious insistence of turning ACES on with each new project no matter how many times I set a project to have it off and check the thing to apply the settings to all future projects. Your image shows ACES being used, which totally changes the colors of any sources that was not created for ACES.

So, try that and see if it helps.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

OldSmoke wrote on 5/4/2018, 2:52 PM

why on Earth would anyone in the 21st Century use 8 bits?

If your source is 8bit it really doesn't make much sense to work in 32bit. Also, to truly work in 10bit in Vegas, it takes bait more than just setting it to 32bit.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

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Red Prince wrote on 5/4/2018, 3:12 PM

I disagree. If you apply any serious color grading with multiple controls/effects in sequence, working in 8 bits makes no sense because each one of them will be rounded to the nearest integer, so you lose the fine control over your colors. This is regardless of what format your source image is in.

When working in 32 bits, no rounding to an integer happens until after the final effect is applied, so you have much finer control over your color grading.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

OldSmoke wrote on 5/4/2018, 3:27 PM

I disagree. If you apply any serious color grading with multiple controls/effects in sequence, working in 8 bits makes no sense because each one of them will be rounded to the nearest integer, so you lose the fine control over your colors. This is regardless of what format your source image is in.

When working in 32 bits, no rounding to an integer happens until after the final effect is applied, so you have much finer control over your color grading.

So, let's just say that we agree to disagree. Take an 8bit source, set your project to 32bit and you will see that the scopes look very different from a true 10bit source. The minimal gain that you may get is lost in the delivery and viewing method. Which means, the only thing you gained is additional render time and increase electricity bill if you want to call that a gain.

Last changed by OldSmoke on 5/4/2018, 3:30 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Red Prince wrote on 5/4/2018, 6:05 PM

Yes, of course, we agree to disagree.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

michael-leonard wrote on 5/4/2018, 10:27 PM

Thank you everyone for the fast reply. I appreciate all of it, including the debate.

Changing my setup to 8bit worked a treat.

One last favor, as I'm still learning a bit would someone mind explaining the reason this happened?

I come from a photography background and in that framework I understand bit depth rather well, but if I were to take a photographic image that was recorded with an 8bit source, then shifted it's pallet to 16 or 32bit, the color presentation of the image wouldn't change one bit, only the file would effectively have redundant color definitions in it. AKA wasted data space, unless I manipulated the image with tools that could take advantage of the larger color space.

Is what I'm seeing here an equivalent to data interpolation gone sideways, or is it something all together different?

I do understand that photo vs video encoding are totally different, but it's just my frame of reference.

 

Thanks again all!

Red Prince wrote on 5/4/2018, 10:43 PM

One last favor, as I'm still learning a bit would someone mind explaining the reason this happened?

It happened because of ACES. If you turned ACES off, the problem would have disappeared. And since ACES only applies in 32-bit editing, switching to 8-bit also turned off ACES. I guess I should explain how to turn off ACES, as Vegas does not allow you to turn it off directly. This shows how:

While you cannot actually turn off ACES (the first red-circled line), you can set its transform to Off, which will stop the problem. I don’t know why Vegas acts as if all 32-bit processing used an ACES transform, but it does.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

Kinvermark wrote on 5/4/2018, 10:52 PM

Beat me to it. Ok, so 8 bit keeps things simple and video levels are right. 32 bit gives you choices for levels, etc, so you can really screw things up.

By the way... to those who believe 32 bit processing gives 8 bit camera footage any tangible benefit, I challenge you to prove it with real life examples. Post some images please.

Red Prince wrote on 5/5/2018, 1:43 AM

I have been programming image and video effects for decades (as in writing the software). This is what happens with just about every effect (with the notable exception of turning the image into its negative) in the 8-bit mode: It will reduce the total number of colors in the image. For example, if you change the contrast, even with a good contrast effect which preserves the blacks and the whites, it either brings the values closer to some value (typically the middle of the range). So far so good. But if you then add another effect, it is now starting with fewer colors than the original, and it further reduces the number of the colors. And the more effects you add, the more colors disappear from the image. That may be what you want, perhaps, and if so, go for it.

If you do that in 32 bits, the number of colors in the image remains the same. Some of them will be outside of the 8-bit range, of course. So, if all you do is apply one effect, the final result will be the same. But if you apply more effects, they will be calculated on the intermediate values. And no matter how many effects you add, the number of the values is not reduced. Only at the very end are the values rounded to an integer (and of course, you can render it in 10 bits or whatever). This is a fact. Contra factum non valet argumentum.

You can also end up clipping and crushing. That is easy to fix in 32 bits, impossible to fix in 8 bits.

Besides, computer graphics algorithms are optimized for values between 0 and 1. So, chances are that if you use the 8-bit mode, various plug-ins will start by converting every 8-bit pixel into a 32-bit pixel, process it, and then convert the result back to 8 bits. And the next plug-in will take that, convert it to 32 bits, process it, then convert it to 8 bits. This is a waste of time.

Back in the 1980s, we used to go out of our ways to avoid 32-bit processing because it was slow. Nowadays, it is as fast as integer processing and some operations are actually faster.

At any rate, I don’t care what you do. If you want to use 8 bits, use 8 bits. I use 32 bits because for what I do, it makes a difference.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
                    — Lao Tze in Tao Te Ching

Can you imagine the silence if everyone only said what he knows?
                    — Karel Čapek (The guy who gave us the word “robot” in R.U.R.)

Kinvermark wrote on 5/5/2018, 9:50 AM

Thanks for the passionate explanation. I can see it would be pointless to argue with you so I won't bother.

Anyone else care to post actual real life 8 bit camera imaging to provide evidence? I have an open mind, but I have never found any real life situation where it makes a whit of difference. I have asked on various forums and nobody has ever provided any evidence. Wonder why?