Previous Button Navigation

Smithee wrote on 3/12/2012, 10:11 PM
I have a project with four video files. Two of the videos have multiple chapters, the other two don't because they're just short clips.

When I preview the DVD in my set-top players everything is fine except for one thing: I can access other titles by pressing the remote's 'previous' button. So for instance immediately after starting one of the tracks I press the previous button multiple times, the previous track plays. But when previewed in DVDA this doesn't happen which is what I want.

How do I set things up so that the previous button, if pressed too many times, doesn't go to the previous video track?

I tried setting 'Remote Buttons'>'Title play' to off to no avail.

For the two titles that don't have multiple chapters I can set 'Remote Buttons'>'Previous/up' to off to prevent this, but what about the two titles that have multiple chapters; disabling 'Previous/up' of course defeats the purpose of navigating chapters.

The two videos that don't have multiple chapters still have one chapter, right at the beginning of course. So I want the remote's previous button to allow access only as far back as the first chapter point, and not play the previous video track.

Either I'm missing a setting in the media properties or my set-top players are behaving differently than DVDA's preview.

Comments

PeterDuke wrote on 3/13/2012, 5:34 AM
What happens when play gets to the end of a file? Does it play the next file or return to the main menu?
Smithee wrote on 3/13/2012, 6:52 AM
All four videos return to the main menu.

My main concern for navigation is a picture compilation, one of the four videos. If someone is navigating the pictures with their remote's previous button, there's always the chance they'll end up seeing one of the other video tracks if that particular button is pressed too many times, especially with set-top players that buffer key presses. I would like to add some sort of wall, so to speak, to prevent the video from going previous to chapter one (i.e. the previous video track).

I looked at some commercial Hollywood DVDs to compare, and in some cases saw the same behaviour I'm trying to prevent. For example, a film's trailer: press the previous button too fast and it goes to another video track.
PeterDuke wrote on 3/13/2012, 7:05 AM
You mention the previous button only. Does the next button behave similarly?
Smithee wrote on 3/13/2012, 7:40 AM
No, the next button doesn't behave similarly. The end actions are set to the main menu, and that's where they go.

In my initial post I mentioned that my set-top players are behaving differently than DVDA's preview. To expound on this, WinDVD, PowerDVD and TotalMedia Theatre behave the same as DVDA's preview: the previous video track isn't played.

But my three set-top players (all from different manufacturers) have a mind of their own and do play the previous video track.

So perhaps it isn't an issue with DVDA, since the three software players are behaving as they should. Maybe set-tops are less stringent with the previous button? Or perhaps I need to set one of the media properties differently? I dunno.

I have an el-cheapo Coby set-top that's in retirement right now -- perhaps I'll dig it out and try that one, too, for curiosity's sake.

In any case, this isn't a huge issue. But I want to do all I can to prevent someone viewing the slideshow to inadvertently end up in another video track from overzealous use of the previous button.
videoITguy wrote on 3/13/2012, 4:28 PM
To Smithee:
I have tried to resist getting involved in this discussion..but I have been squirming here for way too long. I had great difficulty with your first post trying to understand your issue - it seems for lack of a better word -you were not clear!
But if I may paraphrase and summarize "you want to program against a set-top player DVD player's remote control buttons being pushed in an 'unplanned' fashion." Hmm, I don't think you can do that.

Suppose I just decide to sit on top of your remote control and haaa, accidentally push all buttons at once while the remote control IR signal is facing the set-top player receptor. WHAT is going to happen? Can you plan for it? Can you guard against it ever happening in a client's home?

If I ask a programmer of set-top player firmware to program "error traps" against the event of a remote controls -"Prev" button being pressed repeatedly- HE will definitely ask the following- "Do I trap for the error for where the button will be repeatedly pushed within timing for 1/10 sec intervals or no possibly 1/5 sec intervals- well wait a.....how about within 1 sec. " Hey what they hey is reasonable. Okay I trap for two attempt presses spaced .46 sec apart - but I do not trap for the third press which comes .75 sec later - how about what error shall show.-
A Bluescreen that says you cannot do that sequence?

Most set-top players has firmware with some error trapping but you just cannot cover it all. The prev button programming does need to be open-ended because it can and should be used within scene to scene navigation to always get back to Chapter 0 mark, no matter where you are in the context of the current video stream.
Steve Mann wrote on 3/13/2012, 5:02 PM
Thanks VideoITguy (Real Name: (hidden))

That's my first thought also - I am not visualizing what the OP wants to do.
Smithee wrote on 3/14/2012, 5:10 AM
Well, I thought I was very clear <g>.

Let's simplify things -- hopefully -- with a scenario:

One is viewing a slideshow, jumping back and forth quickly, for whatever reason, to view the images. The person isn't paying attention to the actual chapter numbers displayed on the screen. While at chapter one the previous button is pressed and an entirely different video track starts playing. Navigation has just fallen apart.

Have you ever watched a child operate a DVD remote? Like a bull in a china shop sometimes. So this is what I simulated -- being overzealous with the previous button.

As mentioned in a subsequent post, the software players I tried won't allow this to happen with my authored DVD. But my three set-tops will.

I've tested commercial Hollywood DVDs on my set-tops, and even they won't allow such overzealous use of the previous button to enter another video track while playing the main movie. There's a wall, so to speak, at the first chapter that prevents another video track from being accessed. The previous button is intended for the previous chapter, not the previous video track. If there's no previous chapter then the navigation point stays where it is -- the wall doesn't fall apart even when the bull is knocking over the china.

I want this wall as used on commercial Hollywood DVDs to be present for my slideshow.

So what I'm asking is a valid navigation question and has nothing to do with "error traps". It's related to the underlying DVD structure itself.
Former user wrote on 3/14/2012, 9:06 AM
I think what you are seeing is the use of Title Sets. In a commercial DVD using software such as Sonic Scenarist, you are allowed multiple Title Sets and special programming is required to jump between title sets. This allows isolation from button operations, etc. Vegas and other consumer level authoring programs use only one title set. As a result, the titles can be accessed by how they are physically recorded on the disk. If this is a major concern, you might want to investigate authoring programs that allow mutiple title sets.

Dave T2
PeterDuke wrote on 3/14/2012, 9:23 AM
I just made a test DVD with three titles, the second having chapter markers. When previewing the DVD in DVDA, the previous/next skip buttons only move between the chapters in title 2.

I then played the burnt DVD in my LG DVD player. Pressing the previous button repeatedly will step play to title 1 and pressing next repeatedly will step to title 3.
Steve Mann wrote on 3/15/2012, 12:31 AM
The navigation buttons on the DVD player are not defined in any standard, and every player manufacturer may cross titles or not - which is why different players' buttons may work differently.
Smithee wrote on 3/15/2012, 5:27 PM
Multiple titles sets... hmmmm... Sonic Scenarist... sounds expensive <g>.

It's certainly not worth such an investment, although the level of control would be appealing.

Perhaps this was the basis for a commercial concert DVD I just watched. The next button was disabled on the end credits, and I wondered how that was done. But it was probably a separate title.

I could disable the previous button on the slideshow, but that would be too inconvenient for the viewer.

I'm new to DVDA and really thought I hadn't set some media property correctly. If such control isn't possible then I can live with that.

Steve Mann wrote on 3/15/2012, 10:45 PM
You can control the remote buttons for each menu.



You may be able to accomplish your goal, if I understand your OP, with multiple menus.
Smithee wrote on 3/16/2012, 5:21 AM
Thanks for the feedback, guys.

DaveT2... you mentioned Titles Sets which got me thinking, and I found the solution!

I put the slideshow in a playlist. It's just one video file which sort of defeats the purpose of a playlist, but it worked perfect on my three set-tops for what I was trying to do. Abuse of the previous button has no affect -- the previous title simply won't play.

Tested on my three set-tops. The first set-top doesn't display any error when trying to go previous to chapter one; the second shows a red symbol with a slash through it; and the third actually says "Depending on the disc, this function may be prohibited" (I like that last word). Of course it doesn't matter what the set-tops report, none will allow access to another title.

So confined within a playlist there is no previous track.

Smithee wrote on 3/16/2012, 8:14 AM
Oooopppps... ignore what I just posted.

After more time-consuming tests, this time with multiple playlists, the previous button will go to another (previous) playlist on my set-tops.

What threw me off was that I dragged the slideshow to the very top of the project overview panel and then created a playlist link for insertion into the menu. Because the slideshow was at the very top there was no previous video track, hence there's nothing previous to it of course.

This method, however, was still successful for what I wanted to do. But I goofed and thought any playlist would be confined when it comes to abusing the previous button.
videoITguy wrote on 3/18/2012, 11:32 AM
Please see the thread about DVD players not all the same...note my most recent post addresses some comments that were stated in this thread as well.
Smithee wrote on 3/19/2012, 7:35 AM

Yup... I've been reading that thread.

I've done a few more tests but they're quite time-consuming because they have to be rendered and burned. The Oppo set-top is nice because I can render an ISO to a portable USB drive and play it without waiting for a disc to burn. (Unfortunately Oppo has removed the ISO function in their latest firmware due to pressure from Hollywood.)

I've been dabbling in PGCEdit, too, but it's not for the faint of heart.

PeterDuke wrote on 3/19/2012, 8:02 PM
"I've been dabbling in PGCEdit, too, but it's not for the faint of heart."

I was just browsing through a book on Adobe Encore and the author mentioned the DVD Spec book. He said that it costs $5000 and takes a solid years study to get to grips with.
Smithee wrote on 3/19/2012, 9:27 PM

I found this paragraph on Wikipedia interesting:

"The DVD specifications were written in Japanese and then translated to other languages such as English. This process has resulted in text that can be difficult to interpret, and to this day, many companies interpret various parts of the specifications in different ways. This is the reason DVD players from different manufacturers do not always conform to the same rules – each developer understands the specifications in a slightly different way."

Does anyone out there have a copy of PGCEdit for Dummies (Preschool Edition)they'd like to sell? <g>
PeterDuke wrote on 3/20/2012, 2:52 AM
I think forum pages might be your best.

I remember somebody asking the author whether he is going to write something similar for Blu-ray and he answered a definite "no" because he lacked the info, which he had apparently gleaned for DVDs largely by experimentation, and because he had lost interest.

Maybe after a late night or a thousand spent studying what has been written on the internet and from personal experimentation you might be able to advance the state of knowledge :)
videoITguy wrote on 3/20/2012, 11:05 AM
When you Google DVD specifications -you will get at least one hit on source of buying the entire document on .pdf. I can not vouch for how authentic that source is...but of course there are really many independent sources.

There is also other software that will allow you to create the VTS -video title sets- I believe DVDLab Pro is one.

I think the greatest failure of SCS DVD Architect Pro is that it really does not come with a feature-rich production instruction set. That is beginning to change as recently as the last SCS webinars.

Most importantly, using complex software to create product for clients involves some careful analysis of what will work best for the end-user. Following are some examples of that kind of analysis.

1) Example 1 -Although it is possible to make multi-level deep menus with layers of navigation I would not choose to push that at an audience of unsophisticated elders using a DVD/Blu-ray player for the first time. A main menu with one submenu is enough!

2) Example 2- Although it is possible to provide a manual advance slide show by chapter marking a lot of individual picture elements..there are really much better alternatives. A) Use the native capability to just write a bunch of picture files to disk -the way that you write data for CDROM/DVDRom/BDROM computer files. Many set-top players have the ability to display this grouping as a slide show of pictures. or B) Once again thinking of the computer display capability of read of CDROM/DVDRom/BDRom files - use a good presentation software to create a slide show that can be kept as an extra on an otherwise set-top player designed disk. I use Photodex presenter software to do this - the best slide show software in the world.

Conclusion - yes get familiar with DVD Architect Pro - it will reward you -BUT also begin thinking about your audience and your delivery methods as well.