NIce try, but I'm not the subject of this thread. Your abusing of the rules are Randy.

Let's get down to the real nitty-gritty of why this was posted onto this particular forum, and perhaps even, to many other forums as well. It was a statement by the pro-life lobby, not about non-linear editing. I would like to ask you Andy; Don't you think the 1500 US boys, killed in Iraq so far, plus the tens of thousands of innocent people, had a right to life as well? Guys like you make me sick, with your pompous and illogical rantings.

So...If my band does a music video...will it be allowed here in the Forums?

WARNING: Off-topic sub-post follows:

BB: "Others, one in particular, has spammed this forum for well over a year starting endless off topic self promotional threads, rarely bothering to add OT either."

How many times have you directed someone to your lame tutorials? Is this not self promotion? Exactly how is this different than Spot referencing his VEGAS related books, videos and contests?

BB "Again I say rules are for all to follow."

Oh yeah, just like you have followed the Terms and Conditions of the Vegas forum. You are a piece of work!

I am so SICK and TIRED of reading into a thread and discovering where you are RAILING on either Spot or myself, particularly when we have had NOTHING to do with that thread. SHUT THE HELL UP! Your rants and your obvious jealousy and hatred is growing extremely tiresome.

I may be in Chicago soon and, if so, I will definitely be taking some time to pay you a visit while I'm there.

John

You stated clearly what this video was about , OT in the header or or not , but, the fact that you are using this forum ... oh nevermind, thank you for clearly stating the content.

... the Pandora's Box you open...

Actually, you opened it. The "box" was clearly labled. You knew what was in it. If you didn't like it, you shouldn't have opened. Just walk on by.

Randy has as much right to post here asking for advice about his videos as anyone making any other kind of video. No one has the right or authority to chide him about it. He's a Christian that has chosen to make videos based on Christian themes and subjects. He certainly has nothing to apologize for.

It wouldn't be a normal weekend if Cline couldn't find a thread to reconfirm he's nothing but a loud mouth jackass with an ax to grind.

Vintage Cline:

"How many times have you directed someone to your lame tutorials? Is this not self promotion? Exactly how is this different than Spot referencing his VEGAS related books, videos and contests?"

My tutorials are 100% free of charge and come with no strings attached, no promotion ads, no hype, no advertising anywhere on the pages you are directed to. In fact, there is no advertising or marketing of any kind anywhere on the site I direct people to. Period.

Contrast that where if you're interested in a certain "contest" you're directed to a web page where the person offering FIRST takes the opportunity to promote his services.

I'm not spamming the forum in some thinly veiled attempt to direct people to buy either a service or product. That's a HUGE difference. I follow the rules. Somebody else doesn't.

BB: "It wouldn't be a normal weekend if Cline couldn't find a thread to reconfirm he's nothing but a loud mouth jackass with an ax to grind."

I'm sure I can find at least a half-dozen posts from you in the last week or two where you have hijacked a thread for NO OTHER REASON than to slam Spot or myself. Talk about someone with an axe to grind.

Oh, right, Spot charges money for his books and DVD's, I guess that make him a professional and I know how much you HATE that. The nerve of him actually getting PAID for his work! I guess your tutorials are free because you know that's how much they're worth.

You know, there is NO DOUBT that Spot has been responsible for selling infinitely more copies of Vegas than you have. Gee, you think that might be why Sony lets him post links to his VEGAS RELATED products here? Hmmm, let's see, you have someone with global name recognition and respect who is traveling all over the world telling people how great Sony products are and then training people to use these products and it isn't costing Sony anything? Oh yeah, Sony had better squash that behavior RIGHT AWAY!

John

So what you're saying is you don't want anyone using this forum to promote services or products related to Vegas? Or is it OK so long as they don't make a buck out of it?
This is simply an absurd and irrational notion. The one thing that most of us are screaming for is more third party products and services for Vegas. Are you suggesting that those vendors shouldn't come here to let us know what they have on offer?
Why do you have a problem with VASST promoting itself here. They're as far as I know just about the ONLY operation that tirelessly promotes Vegas, thanks to their efforts I've been able to convince quite a number of people to buy Vegas. Or is it just that they also make a meagre income from it? For most of those who work on their projects they could easily pull the pin on the whole show and it wouldn't rate a blip on their bottom line.
If you think you're so familiar with Vegas and a good teacher (as your tutorials suggest you are) why don't you join them, I'm kind of thinking some of them could use a break from the relentless amount of travelling involved. Mind you from what I hear the money isn't that good and the schedules are very gruelling.
Bob.

John, since you've told the forum countless times you're a "professional" with 30 years experience, I find it curious not once do I recall you even showing us an example of your work. Surely everybody is sitting on the edge of their chair waiting to see the work of a "professional" with 30 years experience like you insist on reminding us you have constantly. So show us John. Lets see a Cline masterpiece. I promise to give you a unbiased opinion. If you rather not hear the truth, I won't comment at all. Your choice, but do show us how great you are or how great you think you are, which ever applies. We'll either be very impressed or get a good laugh.

I don't want to get into the debate, but Bob, I appreciate your comments. We work very hard to get Vegas accepted. It was a very difficult fight with NAB this year for instance, to get a Vegas bootcamp happening right alongside AVID and Final Cut. Mannie Frances (managing director of VASST) deserves 100% of the credit for making that happen. Last year at NAB, we proposed a Vegas class to the Digital Media Academy at Stanford College. That's happening this year. Again, Mannie made that happen. It'll play right alongside our FCP and Soundtrack classes.
I know it's only software. I know this is just a community on the web. But I've grown to love both of them, and enjoy writing about Vegas, for Vegas, and trying to spread the word. Sometimes, it gets very tiring. Not the travel, but when you end a long day of travel or training on the application and then come to this particular forum and read veiled attacks or sometimes direct attacks by one or two individuals, it makes the tiring day turn to a grueling day.
The turn this thread has taken only serves to diminish the value of this community, and the severe downward turn of traffic recently demonstrates that. I've about turned to the opinion that private forums would better serve the community, because these sorts of nasty posts aren't allowed and never will be.

BTW, Bob, I'll see you again in Sydney this July. I'm NOT going swimming in Botany Bay this time.

[edit]Randy, even though I may or may not agree with your subject, up to the middle it's a very well done vid. I sorta lost attention after the cemetery shots. If you did this up a little faster using most of the same elements, it would make a very evocative .30 PSA, IMO.

If you wade through the junk that happened in this thread (of which I was part), THIS is what this forum is all about; Someone posted a video. Other's posted constructive crits about that video.
Good.

You know, I'm brand new here and I have to say this is really sad!

I've seen this type of thing on other sites and its just not worth typing in all I want to say.

He posted a VIDEO PRODUCTION. Grade it....Not the theme!

Being that I have sent out a few e-mail to other people telling them that theres this great software called Vegas, I hesitate now to mention that the support forum for it is just as good. Granted I have gotten some help here but Jeez people.....So Embarrassing.

Can this end...Now.

(BTW, I moderate a VERY good site for Music Recording and production. The words used here and the fact that others have downgraded human beings WOULD NOT be tolerated.....Not for a second.)

Please...for the sake that other people interested in this software AND the forums...Stop.


IMHO,
Wm

yaaaawn . . . .

I also think that Randy is pushing the limits of the forum's service rules, but it doesn't bother me one bit. Not exactly a major inconvenience, and he did edit it in Vegas. The "real world" (the world that BillyBoy refers to often) is not black and white. There's lots of gray. And the real world is not exactly fair, either. Anybody who says that it is, lives in a dream world. BillyBoy, it's amazing that you can turn this thread into another thinly veiled attack on Spot. That is really whacky, don't you think?

I am not trying to start an argument. In fact, it's quite the contrary. I just want to point out that whenever you make these remarks out of the blue, you are having the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve. Sure, Spot throws in an occasional plug, but usually it's in context to whatever the issue is. He sure enough puts enough time and effort into helping people here, and his level of expertise is more than what you could "buy" if you wanted to pay for Vegas tech support. And he provides more than tech support. He also has lots to contribute on the creative side.

You remind me of another guy who was also a chronic "pain in the butt". A few years ago, I started a Website to help a couple of people who were organizing a high school reunion for my graduating class. I put hundreds of hours into it without any intention of ever making a penny in return. I just did it to help them, and it was a nice nostalgic indulgence for me. We managed to get 300 people to attend the reunion, and most of them came because of the Website. After the reunion, we transformed the site into the offical alumni organization site, and even offered the school a small scholarship from the $200 or so left over from the reunion. A couple of the others suggested charging a token $10 annual membership fee, mostly to pay the cost of printing and mailing a quarterly newsletter and finding classmates who were not yet online. This was before anyone even heard of classmates.com.
It would also help to maintain the scholarship fund, and pay for the site, etc. We also considered token fees to promote class reunions for other classes, and sold alumni T-Shirts at cost. Wouldn't you know it, there was some guy who kept accusing us of doing this as some kind of get rich quick scheme! Anyway, I got sick of arguing with that jerk, so I decided to make everything completely free (except the T-Shirts, since we actually lost money on those things). He then created his own site (a really crappy email list), which I guess many people complained about because they started getting lots of spam as a result of being listed so openly on it. But I became so disgusted with his relentless accusations and whining, that I eventually just let the whole thing to pot. So I guess that he "won".

SONY has already told you, BB, that they had no problem with the thread that you brought to their attention. Whether you agree with them or not, it's their decision, and you should just consider the case closed already, man. With the amount of effort you put into that, you could benefit a worthwhile cause. This is not exactly the Constitution of the United States or the Supremem Court that you are defending here, it's just a tech support bulletin board for video editing computer geeks.

Okay, what if somehow (as if this would ever happen), Thelma Schoonmaker (Oscar winning editor of the “The Aviator”) became a regular on this forum, and started posting some clips from an independent production she's working on (because she values our expert opinions). Let's assume that the subject matter wasn't even controversial, and that she was using Vegas. Would you constantly try to pit all the other forum members against her by accusing her of self-promotion, having an ego, and playing the "professional" card if she disagrees you?

How many threads will you be responsible for ending or deleting before you or Sony finally wise up? I can't think of anyone else who has caused so many threads to become removed. This is far more damaging than anything you are trying to "protect" us from in the way of Spot or John's behavior.

Editor3333 and alfredsvideo:

You gents really need to grow up! You saw the subject line. It didn't even just say Abortion video...it said 'Pro Life Abortion Video' which told you what perspective it was from. Randy even let you know that it was from a religious view.

If you don't need religion.................then DON"T CLICK ON THE LINK. Maybe my computer has something wrong with it but I don't recall the video being launched automatically when I opened this thread...I had to actually choose to view it...after I was warned about its subject matter.

There was nothing in the post that was offensive...some may say that the video itself was offensive (and they would be dishonest, because I would be willing to bet that they wern't offended at all) but to view the video you had to choose to leave the sony site and visit another where you could watch it.

You weren't offended......you disagree. There's a difference.


PS. I seem to recll a couple years ago, someone posted a segment of a documentry they were working on about exotic dancers...which contained everything that you would expect a documentry about exotic dancers to have.........noone seemed to mind.


Randy, as far as the video goes:

It looks good but it is too slow. Especially the text. I found myself reading what was on screen and then just waiting....for the next words...it seemed like I could have read each message three or four times before it faded. I think you should make the cuts and text faster.....My guess would be that you could cut the time by a third.


-Shon

PS. I seem to recll a couple years ago, someone posted a segment of a documentry they were working on about exotic dancers...which contained everything that you would expect a documentry about exotic dancers to have.........noone seemed to mind.

You got a link to this? :D :D

As a matter of fact...

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=149680


The links don't seem to work anymore :(

Maybe Muttley could help us out ;)

I'll be totally honest. Coming into the thread I was entirely prepared to critique the video editing portion of the project. But after seeing it....I can only say that I was totally outraged by what I perceived as propaganda, lies and mislead.

After staring at the screen for a few minutes....I replied with absolute most polite thing I could come up with. Anything else would have been incredibly mean and unnecessary.

And even now I'm debating on whether or not I should explain exactly what I meant by that comment. Because i'm sure it would create quite a stir............so i'll leave it at that.

..and that's the last i'll comment i'll make in this thread.

Yes, I thought the subject matter was clearly indicated so couldn't be bothered with it. Getting offended seems a waste of effort. In fact it was only a different thread complaining about all the bad language that caused me to read through this thread. Guess I should complain about the amount of time I wasted. But then I chose to keep reading!

The link is now :

http://www.undergroundplanet.com/dancersexposed.htm

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

[edit] Wow, actually read my original post, that was a loooong time ago and seems even longer. The original did actually contain nudity and was a bit more risqué, the one I just posted a link to is the trailer that came later and it is much tamer than my original post ( and a better representation of the overall piece ). Sorry but I don't think I even have the original on my site anymore.

On the "Can't we all get along?" thread, Spot comments, if I understand him correctly, that Sony has not put resources into having an active moderator, and also that Sony is reluctant to start censoring content due to certain restrictions corporations have to consider.

I didn't know that, and therefore I'll stop referring to the Sony rules for forum members. I don't criticize Sony for this, I just acknowledge that the company has balanced considerations and made a policy decision. I certainly don't favor shutting down all content, or all video links because it's less expensive to do so.

Though some of the people who read my posts (vitalforce at home, editor3333 at the office) may think I'm an old fuddy-duddy, this is not so. I am passionate about my politics, and about legal questions regarding church and state, but I am even more passionate about the necessity of keeping the Internet as free and open as humanly possible. This is a time in modern history when there are people who would very much like to lock down the Internet and prevent free discussion.

So I'll lay off in the future, with the objections about evangelism on a tech forum. There are worse things.
.
And better things--like an exotic dancing link. And the crazy frog.