Problems With Lines In Video After Rendering

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/8/2002, 12:13 AM

Loosing my mind here...

I've got several sources of video that I'm editing for this project. Everything that's been filmed on my Canon XL1 in " Frame Movie Mode " looks, edits, and renders great. Everything that was from other consumer DV cameras looks like its fine until I pre-render or render I get lines, especially noticeable during movement, in the video. I've been changing every " Project Property " and rendering option I can find but to no obvious avail. I've been digging through the help/support/message boards for the last few hours and am clueless.

I've got a clutch-cargo deadline here, to quote Jack Black, and really need some immediate assistance.

Asking for a lot here but if you have any suggestions please email me and post the responses so that I can get your reply ASAP and others who run into this might find the answer.

Thanks a bunch folks and look forward to your replies.

- Raymond J. Schlogel

ray@austin.rr.com

Comments

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/8/2002, 10:21 PM

Help ?

- Ray

BillyBoy wrote on 12/8/2002, 10:30 PM

You're not really giving much information, so just guessing...

Where do you see the lines?

When viewing in the preview window, if so on a external monitor or from the computer?

The entire video or just sections?

If sections those with embedding still images or high action?

Have you tried right clicking on a event any applying the resample switch or reduce Interlace flicker switch?

If so, do the lines reduce or go away?

What format are you rendering to?

Under project properties is field order set to lower field first?

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/9/2002, 2:24 PM

Thanks for the interest, felt awful lonely. =)

I'll try ta narrow this down.

Primarily see the lines on the subject when they are moving or across the entire screen if the camera is moving. I see them both on the computer, in the preview window, and on the television when printed to tape but ONLY WHEN or AFTER rendering, not during playback from the timeline. I'm not using still images. I have tried the resample switch, reduced flicker, and both in combo and they appear to cause no noticeable improvement. I'm rendering to avi to carry over the scenes to another timeline which is the complete project.

The settings when I render to avi are :
_____________________________________________________________

Audio: 48 KHz, 16-bit, Stereo. PCM (uncompressed).
Video: 29.97 fps, 720x480, Lower field first.
Pixel Aspect Ratio: .909. OpenDML compatible.
NTSC DV video files compatible with Sonic Foundry Video
_____________________________________________________________

As I stated in my previous post, this is not happening on any of the footage from the Cannon XL1, only the couple lower end consumer DV cameras we used on the project such as Sony's DCR-IP5. Worth noting is that the lines are much more pronounced when slowing down the video for slo-mo.

Hope this info will help ya to help me cuz I'm completely lost and frustrated and have about two days ta finish this thing.

Thanks again buddy.

- Ray

ray@austin.rr.com

BillyBoy wrote on 12/9/2002, 3:50 PM

Sorry, don't know what else to suggest... Perhaps Dennis or one of the other SoFo techs can get a handle on it.

Since you're up against a deadline maybe trying a render of a small section that has the lines as raw (uncompress) AVI just to test what happens. If that gets rid of the problem you could render the whole project as uncompress AVI, then open in TMPGEnc for the final render if you going to MPEG-2, whatever.

You can grab a copy of TMPGEnc at http://www.tmpgenc.net/e_main.html

Good luck.

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/9/2002, 4:10 PM

Dennis !!! SoFo !!!! HELP !!!!!

Thanks Billy, appreciate the try. I think I am rendering the project uncompressed already ( am I missing something ? ). And is MPEG-2 higher quality or primarily for DVD ? If it is higher quality, why does Vegas use avi's for its native editing format when you import ? So many questions, so little time.

- Ray

BillyBoy wrote on 12/9/2002, 4:35 PM

Hmmm...

Maybe I'm going on the wrong assumption. Are you trying to get your edited footage back to your camera or what is referred to as "print to tape"? If so, then for a file type you should select AVI, but do NOT select the default template. Instead select the NTSC DV template or PAL if you're not in the states. This does cause some compression but the quality is very high. I never tried to get "uncompressed" AVI tape back to my digital camera, so I don't know if that works or not.

Shame nobody else responded to this thread yet. Usually you get three or more respones all pretty much the same.

SonyEPM wrote on 12/9/2002, 4:40 PM

sorry, I'm a little lost. All footage is NTSC, shot on DV and captured over 1394 and you are rendering to NTSC DV .avi, all in vegas. Is this correct?

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/9/2002, 5:12 PM

Sonic has it right.

All the footage is NTSC DV, captured over firewire with Vegas, and rendered to NTSC DV avi. The project is to be released on DVD and VHS, though I " Print To Tape " on my Sony DV-G900 ( also what I use to capture ) so that I may preview my edits on a larger television.

Again the problem is happing ONLY with vid not shot on the Canon XL1.

Can I just say ... AAAAAHhhhhhhhhh ... loosing it. =P

- Ray

dcrandall wrote on 12/9/2002, 5:29 PM

Excuse me for entering this topic late. But, I was just reading.....did I get this right?....The footage you're having this problem with was taken with a Sony DCR-IP5? If so, the problem you are having may be due to the fact that the Sony DCR-IP5 does not encode to the Mini-DV format, but instead encodes to the MicroMV format. (Sony's own non-standard MPEG2 format). How are you transfering this video file into Vegas? I don't believe Vegas can import the MicroMV format directly.

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/9/2002, 7:12 PM

Sorry, wrong model. The three cameras used were a Canon XL1, a Sony DCR-PC101 ( listed as a MiniDV Handycam ), and a Sony DCR-TRV840 ... both Sony's having the problems. Both Sony's having the problem, as stated, most noticeably in slo-mo.

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com

Tyler.Durden wrote on 12/9/2002, 7:24 PM

Hi Ray,

In project props, what are the advanced settings set to?

Also, what does the status view in Vegas Explorer indicate when you click on a Sony clip?

MPH

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/9/2002, 7:51 PM

In advanced project properties Motion Blur Type is set to none and I have changed the Deinterlace Method to Blend Fields, seems to help a little but barely.

As for " the status view in Vegas Explorer " when I highlight a clip it says:

Video 724x480x24 29.970 fps 00:00:01.10 Alpha = None Audio 32,000Hz, 16-Bit Stereo, ( Length ), Uncompressed.

Any guesses ?

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com

Tyler.Durden wrote on 12/9/2002, 9:16 PM

724x480x24 sounds unfamiliar... anybody?

MPH

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/9/2002, 9:22 PM

720x480x24 ... typo. Sorry guys.

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com

Finster wrote on 12/10/2002, 8:58 AM

I'd be interested in hearing a solution to this problem too, since I'm getting the same sort of horizontal banding during camera movements on a project I'm working on, but ONLY when I try to letterbox render the video, the widecreen (anamorphic) version is clean. My video was shot on Betacam and converted from composite to DV through a Sony converter. So far, no combination of resampling, deinterlace or various templates has helped, and I've tried a bunch of combinations.

Muttley, what does the Canon XL1's " Frame Movie Mode " actually do to the video? It seems like a clue might lie there?

Finster

Tyler.Durden wrote on 12/10/2002, 1:37 PM

Hey Ray,

Could be something about the project, could be something about the media:

You might try creating a project with just one event containing the sony media...

If that is clean, then maybe a project with one event from the Canon and one from the Sony...

Gotta be somthin.

MPH

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/10/2002, 7:37 PM

Ehya Finster, a brief explanation of " Frame Movie Mode " taken from another site : " Frame Movie mode records thirty full-frame full-resolution images per second, instead of sixty interlaced fields per second as in normal video. "

MPH, this is happening regardless of how or what I render it to, to the best of my knowledge from everything I've tried ... The segments that were filmed on anything but the XL1 are separate scenes and edited independent of the project, than brought into the project.

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com
ray@austin.rr.com

Tyler.Durden wrote on 12/10/2002, 8:08 PM

Hmmmmmm, the plot thickens..... but so does gravy.

"separate scenes and edited independent of the project"

How are these separate scenes prepared?
Edited in VV?
What format are they rendered to?
Those project settings?
Brought into VV as video clips?
They look ok before adding to the final project, or look bad in the initial render?

MPH

P.S. Was there any non-standard setting (like a shutter-mode) active on those cameras?

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/10/2002, 9:29 PM

Whew ... datz alotta questions. =)

All are prepared the same all captured with and edited in VV. The settings are the same as I descriped earlier, the only diff being that those that were on the Sony I'm using the " Blend fields " option as it appears to help but only slightly. They are being rendered to avi using most of VV's default settings except set to " Best " for quality. They look like crap after the initial render but seem to look okay when running and previewing from the timeline.

What else am I forgetting ? =P

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/13/2002, 4:51 PM

Anyone else ?

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com

Tyler.Durden wrote on 12/13/2002, 5:25 PM

Hi Ray,

Other Qs:...

Got any other video editing apps on yer system?

Got "ignore third-party codecs" checked in prefs?

Got "use MS DV codec" unchecked in prefs?

HTH, MPH

mvb wrote on 12/13/2002, 6:56 PM

You might try processing the non-frame movie mode stuff with this

www.dvfilm.com/maker

which converts interlaced video to progressive-scan
before cutting it into your project that is mostly frame-movie mode,

OR

process the whole final cut with Maker afterwards to remove the interlacing
from everything.

SonyDennis wrote on 12/14/2002, 7:38 PM

Muttley:

Sorry, I haven't been on the forum for a few days.

These sound like regular old interlace lines. What's the problem with them? Any non-frame mode camcoder produces them. They are a normal thing in 60 fields-per-second video.

///d@

MUTTLEY wrote on 12/22/2002, 7:31 PM

So are there any workarounds if thats it ?

- Ray
ray@austin.rr.com