proMAX DA-MAX + for RS-422 Sony-protocol decks

John_Beech wrote on 9/24/2002, 2:21 PM
While some consider IEEE-1394 as an I/O typical of hobbyist-grade NLEs and thus strictly for editing wannabes, in the real world, it's just another I/O - and a very nice one at that! In common with most businesses, we have a need to work with whatever material a client may have - everything from VHS to Digital Betacam. Hence, if our Vegas Video 3.0c workstation is to be of professional use to us (i.e. other than as the single-purpose miniDV-only low-end NLE it's marketed as), I needed to find a way to integrate it with the various edit decks with which our edit bay is equipped. If, like us, you too need to integrate professional edit decks (i.e. those using the 9-pin RS-422 Sony-protocol) with Vegas Video, this may be of interest.

Background: Various transport protocols exist for controlling decks (and cameras). Protocols range from those typically marketed toward consumers and low-end professionals, through higher-end professionals. These include Control-L, Lanc, and most recently IEEE-1394 (iLink and Firewire are nomenclatures in common use) at the low end.

Further up the food chain (so to speak), are those decks using the RS-232 serial-protocol (yes, the common serial port found on computers). Unfortunately, like Unix operating system, it suffers from widespread incompatibility as individual manufacturers tweek it for their proprietary use.

Another serial-protocol exists (incompatible electrically with RS-232, but sharing the same ordinary-looking 9-pin connector). It's called RS-422, and it's used in the overwhelming majority of professional-class decks. It's typically known as the 'Sony-protocol' 9-pin RS-422 serial-control. And yes, even here there's trouble in paradise as it too has some (fewer) incompatibilities . . . but nonetheless, it's very common to most professional edit decks.

Other NLEs of the genre, AVID's Express DV 3.5 and Apple's Final Cut Pro come to mind, share the same market segment as Vegas Video (high-end hobbyist/amateur and entry-level professional). They also share the limitation of being designed with IEEE-1394 in mind. Why do I say limitation? Because I, like many others, when possible adapt the tool for my own purpose . . . regardless of the moniker a manufacturer tags a product with. This just means a tool putatively marketed to one segment may, if it merits it, find uses beyond the manufacturers vision.

We have found a video format converter with IEEE-1394 to RS-422 bi-directional deck-control which works with Vegas Video 3.0c. While chiefly marketed for users of AVID's Express DV 3.5, Apple's Final Cut Pro (as is), the device also works with Adobe's Premier 6.5 (with purchase of a 3rd party plug-in) and hence, allows full insert-edit capabilities if the decks are capable of it.

Unfortunately, Vegas Video owners are limited to assemble-edits due to how the software is written. Despite being comparatively emasculated (this may, or may not be addressed in future versions), the device is still very useful in that assemble-edits are better than none! Thus, while delivering only partial functionality with Vegas, it 'does' resolve some of the issues of bringing professional deck control to VV 3.0c.

The device is a rack-mountable black box which can accept composite, Y/C, and YUV-component analog I/O (along with audio via RCA or Canon connectors - 3-pin XLR) "and" IEEE-1394 and SDI Digital Video I/O (along with AES/EBU Digital Audio) - and of course, 9-pin RS-422 Sony-protocol transport! It's available from http://www.promax.com and is their DA-MAX+ Audio/Video Media Format Converter.

When I first opened the box, I was delighted to find it packed in foam pieces designed to suspend the device within the cardboard box. No damage despite apparently being used as a football! Score a point.

Also included was every single thing needed to integrate it into the edit bay. First, there is an RS-422 cable to connect it to an RS-422 deck. There is also a 15' long IEEE-1394 cable - a tasty shielded (braided) cable at that! A pill-style power supply (fortunately, not a wall-wart, but instead one that sits between a cable to the box and a separate power cable to the UPS's 110V outlet). In addition there's a CD and a manual. While the manual obviously comes from an office-class laser printer, and the CD has a 2-color glossy white label (as opposed to an offset-printed/bound manual and a silk-screened CD), they are very professional and detract nothing whatsoever from the overall impression of quality.

Folks, it's obvious proMAX has given every attention (consistent with prudent business practices) to deliver a completely professional package. At first I thought they'd not dlivered the ears to permit mounting the box in the rack, but a closer examination revealed they were indeed included! Score more points.

How does it work? I don't know just yet. Sorry, but I'm up to my elbows in a project I simply cannot neglect long enough to try this out (just yet), so please stand by for part 2 . . . but so far, wow, this looks like the cat's meow for resolving how to integrate RS-422 decks with Vegas Video 3.0c . . . especially since the folks at proMAX told me SoFo's Dave Hill chatted with them personally about it (proMAX knew I refused to purchase without assurances it worked with VV 3.0c). I'm stoked folks!

John Beech

Comments

Tyler.Durden wrote on 9/24/2002, 2:53 PM
Thanks for the fine report, John. Looking forward to the next chapter.

Cheers (and gadget-envy),

MPH
John_Beech wrote on 9/24/2002, 8:20 PM
Part 2

A quick experiment shows promise . . . but things aren't working as expected. The RS-422 decks did operate and a clip was successfully captured - however, 2 points raised their heads. First, the process was excruciating as it took forever to cue the deck. This didn't work the first time at all, then on the second attempt (I didn't change anything, I was just trying it again, it captured the clip). Second, the monitor out isn't working as expected (all analog-outs are supposed to be live and hence, a Y/C cable between the box and a monitor should permit previewing on an external monitor - it's not.

Also, once a tape goes to standby, the VidCap application refuses to connect again unless I physically unhook the DV cable and connect it back again, at which point is 'finds' it again. Despite some disapointment, I am hopeful these are just issues with set up and configuration (I don't see how, but one things is for sure, a preliminary test where no analog video is connected and just a cable from the device to the monitor should show color bars, isn't working, so we'll what this is about).

I will continue with Part 3 soon.

John Beech
vicmilt wrote on 9/24/2002, 9:07 PM
Good luck John.
Coincidently, I have just gotten to the point that 422 insert ability has "come to the fore".
I cut my teeth editing video on the AVID Media Composer. It therefore never occurred to me that you "couldn't" insert edit into a completed video.

Hooboy, am I missing that ability right now!

I'm at the end of a 12 minute video. It is professional in every respect. It is also a "12 minute optical". It's one of the things that drew me into VV.
On this job I have replaced the AVID and AfterEffects entirely with VV3. That's quite a compliment to the SF designers. Thank you.

But this 3 hour rendering and inablilty to then do "Quick Fixes" while the client waits, is brutal.
And my client is due to arrive in the next day or two, for a "look/see".

With my AVID, inserting a new "lower third" or changing an edit, would be nothing.
Plus, how many jobs have I completed only to find a flash frame or a missed dissolve (one where you get a few frames of the wrong scene).
Easy fix with insert to tape availability.

Now, unlike many, I did not choose VV because it's cheap. Money is truly not an issue at all. Editing is the only way I make a living, and the cost of tools is meaningless, compared to the time you save or lose, in this most time consuming and tedious of careers. I chose Vegas for this job, simply because I have grown to love it's interface. It's fast and smooth and invites experimentation.

So I am watching your experiment with extreme interest.
Good luck.
John_Beech wrote on 9/27/2002, 10:00 PM
Yeah, I too was shocked to discover such a routine occurence as insert-editing was not possible with VV - it's a limitation of IEEE-1394 though, so no foul. I do, however, believe VV3 'will' do assemble-edits, so while not exactly in the big-leagues yet, at least there is a minor-league partial solution.

Meanwhile, here's Part 3 . . .

When we last checked in, our hero is struggling with the infamous "Black Box" . . . a.k.a. the proMAX DA-Max+ analog->1394 converter with RS-422 control.

"You won't defeat me you lousy piece of $#!+!", mutters our iron-jawed hero - OK, fat butt wannabe - whatever!

Seriously, the saga continues. In an attempt to resolve the issue, even the "da Man", Dave Hill intercedes. E-mails are a flying between the folks at SoFo and proMAX.

Dave suggests, 1) check for the latest TI1394-driver . . . I can't find it called anything but a Microsoft DV-driver. Next, Dave suggests checking out another 1394 board (I'm using the same Soundblaster Audigy da Man uses - but 'he' still uses W2K while I'm hanging on the bleeding edge with XP Pro. Nonetheless, I secure another Audigy to try - no change. Next, a separate 1394 board altogether is procured - I'll try it tomorrow, I'm bushed for now. Number 3 on Dave's hit list is, "Try it with Premier and see if you get the same behavior." OK, I install Premier 6.0 but the Play, Pause, and Stop commands continue to work as they do in VV3.0c. Hmmm, I didn't want to hear that! As with VV3, there's no REW and FF happening which means a streak of a seek (to another place on the tape for a capture) happens more at an amble, like real slooooow. Fortunately for Premier owners, a third-party plug-in call ProVTR (and others) exists to resolve the issue allowing the deck to be connnected to the host-computer's RS-232 port . . . but such a solution doesn't exist yet for VV.

Meanwhile, conversations are happening with proMAX too, where 'Paco', whose real name is Khiem Nguyem (don't ask, it's a long story - OK, he was but the third employee ever at proMAX and nobody could pronounce his name, so he was promptly nicknamed Paco), but I digress! Back to the chase, Paco is trying to see what he can come up - this guy promised to call back later today (on a Friday afternoon no less, "Yeah right Paco!" . . . but wait, guess what? He did! Turns out that facilitated by Dave Hill, Paco has procured a copy of VV3.0c and has it up and running at proMAX.

The bad news is he can control (with FF and REW) a UVW1800. Next, he's gonna try a Sony DSR-1800. The real bad news is he thinks it's thus an incomaptibility between my Panasonic AJ-D850 edit-deck, and the Sony protocol - bummer! The good news is an off-site programmer, Mike Schell (the fellow who actually comes up with patches and such for the DA-Max+ flashBios) is involved now - and they're trying to help.

Meanwhile, I've been busy explaining to the crew at proMAX why VV3.0c is such a bitchin' piece of software, and Paco (after a few minutes touring around the program with me on the other end of the phone) starts to see why I'm so stoked over it - this is a good thing!

Hence, while there's no joy in J'ville tonight, there remains a spark of hope because this encouraging start at resolving the issue never degenerated into a, "He said, she said" affair - or any other kind of finger pointing, and instead it looks like both crews are mulling the problem over.

Folks, please realize it would have been ever so easy for Dave Hill to make some excuse and blow me off - he didn't . . . so full marks to Dave (and the team at SoFo) for entering dialog with proMAX . . . ditto for proMAX too.

Part 4 - sometime next week, I hope.

John Beech

PS, what I've said elsewhere about buying VV3.0c right now . . . after seeing the resolve of Dave and proMAX to come up with a solution for me, well, if you haven't bought Vegas Video as yet, you don't know what you are missing. If by chance you are sitting on the fence, then climb off before you fall off - go ahead and buy it! DO it now. JB




vicmilt wrote on 9/27/2002, 11:01 PM
John -
Did I understand that you CAN control a PVW1800 with ProMax?
Does that mean that you can do the traditional inserts, etc.

I have a BVW75 Beta deck and that would be a great thing. Now, the ProMax puts out a composite signal? and a RS422 controller?

You wouldn't be getting "pure DV", but component Beta ain't chopped liver, even if it is compressed at 5:1.

This might truly be a professional workaround, for a nagging problem.

Edit in VV and put out to component Beta. Did I get it, or did I miss something?

v.
vicmilt wrote on 9/27/2002, 11:04 PM
More -
I actually just remembered that the Sony DSR45 has RS422 control.
Perhaps you could record DV directly on it, but with the RS422 controller in command??
It's too much to hope for.
Ask your (new) buddies what they think.
v.
John_Beech wrote on 10/3/2002, 6:31 PM
Unfortunately Victor, the Sony DSR45 doesn't output via IEEE-1394 when the material being played back in the deck is DVCPRO tape. It's a footnote on the Sony tech sheet.

This is especially unfortunate since DVCPRO is greatly in use amongst local television stations across the country. Hence in electing to not playback DVCPRO tape stock, the Sony is incompatible with my needs . . . DVCPRO is just another deck here in my studio - the main one actually, but unlitmately, just another RS-422 device amongst my arsenal of tools.

Folks, if you think about it, Sony's decision defines a recognizable base of DVCPRO-users (or potential clients) which the Sony DSR45 deck cannot address.

PART 4 - Here's the latest vis-a-vis the proMAX DA-MAX+ as I am trying to incorporate it into a VV edit bay via component-analog (Betacam YUV - Y/C, composite, and SDI digital too) into firewire..

As things stand, the black box controls Play, Pause, and Stop on my deck via the RS-422 -> IEEE-1398 (aak Firewire and iLink) on my Panasonic AJ-D850 edit-deck. Just no FFW or REW which means it sucks if I need to digitize a 30 second clip at 3 minutes of a tape and another 30 second clip 15 minutes into the tape as it searches for the next clip to copy into the video-drive at Play speeds, ie. 1x . . . this sucks!

FWIW, it also has issues with Sony decks in my rack. It controls the same Play, Pause, and Stop sequence, plus imperfect control of FFW and REW (ewhich the above Panasonic deck doesn't allow p[erfectly or imperfectly). One is a Sony EVO-9800A which is a Hi8 edit deck, the other is an SVP-9000 SVHS edit player. They claim it controls a UVW1800 perfectly, but I don't have one to try!

In any case, I am encouraged by the responses of Dave Hill for SoFo, and whatever tech level he speaks with at proMAX who tell me via their tech support guy that this can be 'fixed' in DA-MAX+ within a few months (when a release that addresses the issue is gotten to - in other words, it's in the cue ).

On another front, my pal Victor has been examinging Matrox's RT100 or somesuch and says it claims t do insert-edits. For my part, I've encountered several plug-ins for Premier which could allow me to take completed .avi movies out of VV into Premier for Print To Tape (PTT) - hence, with the more accurate insert-edit capabilities my edit-decks are capable of. proVTR comes to mind there are others.

Also, investigations of V-LAN devices with www.videomedia.com leads me to believe they'll folow up too (in offering their RS-422 resources to SoFo). The fellow, I spoke with, Stan ssult@videomedia.com was pumped at the thought of them working with SoFo for possible use in VV (he mentioned parts of their code were in AVID products for RS-422 control)... who knows what might come of this, but it surely can't be bad if it makes it easier for folks in the video industry to adopt VV!
vicmilt wrote on 10/3/2002, 7:20 PM
Kudos to you John!
Keep up the good fight.

I will continue searching for alternative methods, but SF guys - clearly this is a solvable issue and it lands in your backyard.

v.
Active wrote on 10/4/2002, 7:45 AM
our experiences with promax...

(1) its back in the storeroom, unplugged after at least 1 month of trouble!
(2) composite and yc ins/outs are terrible
(3) the software settings are not save-able - (we were told to leave the power on if we wanted to save any of the changes)
(4) it has no reference in/out so when going back to betasp via component we get the message 'bad ref' message
(5) all composite inputs have to be TBC before they can be recorded
(6) the composite output is black and white (we were told this was the timing on the operating system so we went to Windows XP and it didnt make any difference!)

its a great box, but has many problems which promax dont seem to be too bothered about fixing, we didnt try SDI and AES Audio - maybe these are ok ?

If the problems were resolved it would be fantastic piece of kit.

Maybe thats why the only other box similar cost around £10,000 and promax cost just over £1500 !

hows everyone else getting on with this box ?