Questions about VP10 VU meters

LoTN wrote on 10/16/2010, 1:51 PM
I'm glad to see PPM / VU meters available in the console but I need explanations about some details.

The traditional VU scale is -20 +3, why Vegas is -10 +3 ?

I can't see what the vintage mode does. I suspected it would raise the integration time and decay but it apparently changes nothing. Can someone shed some light on this ?

It would be very useful to have the K-system scales available with the VU meters. Could SCS add them in a future release ?


ChristoC wrote on 10/16/2010, 2:34 PM

> The traditional VU scale is -20 +3, why Vegas is -10 +3 ?
Some youngster designer at Sony has never seen a real VU meter.

> I can't see what the vintage mode does.
Just makes you feel old!

Have you noticed the VU meter on the Mixer Preview channel does not change scale?
LoTN wrote on 10/16/2010, 3:05 PM
Yep, I feel "vintage" and still love my old analog gears :)

I seldom use the preview fader. I can see it's scale sticks on the revisited trad VU too but I don't think it's an issue unless I am wrong.
ChristoC wrote on 10/16/2010, 4:29 PM
There does seem an overall slower response, with lower peak clip indication numbers, when 'Vintage Mode' is used.

I'm unsure which mode to use, as I'm more familiar with real d'Arsonval VU meter movement.
ChristoC wrote on 10/21/2010, 3:09 PM
Earlier I said Have you noticed the VU meter on the Mixer Preview channel does not change scale?

Support: "I was able to reproduce the issue you are seeing. I will go ahead and pass this along to our development team."

JimMSG wrote on 11/2/2010, 9:28 AM
Okay, this may be a real DQ, but why -20 3 or -10 3? Shouldn't 0 be 0? On my console I can calibrate the meters however I like, but if I put through tone at 0 and switch between peak and VU, the meters just stay at 0. VU is slower to move etc., but 0 is still 0. What advantage is there for it not to be? I really like having VU meters, but they are faster than the peaks, and as a result almost useless. What am I missing here?
LoTN wrote on 11/6/2010, 10:47 AM
0 is 0, we where speaking about scale. Trad VU is -20 +3 .

VUs are not faster than the peaks, they do have an integration time and a decay which makes them slower for raise and fall. And yes they are useful.
JimMSG wrote on 11/6/2010, 2:39 PM
Seriously, this is probably DQ time. I don't understand the usefulness of scale apparently. I know VU doesn't react as fast as peak. I use both in the work I do, particularly when I'm creating a bin loop master. Yes, there still is cassette duplication and bin loops still get recorded. :)

I have one set of meters reading peak levels, the other VU. But both sets are set to 0 being 0, not scaled. For this job I have to make sure peaks are below a particular point, or the finished cassette will splatter. The VU gives me a better idea though of what the entire program is like. Everyone still wants "broadcast" standard or louder, and using the meters this way I have a better picture of how "loud" the finished product is going to be.

Now, back to audio in VP10. I'd like the VU to work like the VU's on my bin maker (Otari MTR12 1/2" 4 track). The way they work now any time I get anywhere near top volume in an audio, they are nailed at +3. I don't see how this is useful.

It would be way more useful to me if I could remove the scale, or if someone can explain how I can use the scaled metering.
ChristoC wrote on 11/6/2010, 4:21 PM
VU Meters should always have a set relationship with steady-state test signal to concurrent Peak Meters.
Traditionally that set relationship has confusingly varied:
0 VU = -12dBfs Peak (early DAT recorders)
0 VU = -14dBfs Peak (other DAT recorders etc)
0 VU = -16dBfs Peak
0 VU = -18dBfs Peak
0 VU = -20dBfs Peak

There's whole books devoted to 'what's best' - personally I have all my PRO equipment callibrated to 0 VU = -18dBfs Peak Meter, which appears to be common Broadcast Standard in my street.

However we are now further confused by VegasPro10, where we are treated to an entirely new interpretation in the "Traditional VU" or "Extended VU" setting:
0 VU = -15dBfs !!!!!!!!!!!

Additionally, if you switch either of above VU meters to "Vintage Mode" the cal is suddenly 0 VU = -14dBfs

I'm thinking someone at Sony just thought adding VU meters would make it all look pretty.
LoTN wrote on 11/7/2010, 9:30 AM
@JimMSG: Now I beleive I get your point. I suggest you have a try with PSP VintageMeter. It's free and seems to be reliable, you can adjust the integration and return time.


The more I dig into this the more I get confused...
It looks like the 'vintage mode' switch inserts a 1dB correction to the scales.

I did tests with a 1k test tone sampled at 44k1, 16bit. Project set to 44k1, 16bit.

vintage on: 0dB = -18dBFS (ok)
vintage off: 0dB = -19dBFS

vintage on: 0dB = -12dBFS (ok)
vintage off: 0dB = -13dBFS

Nordic PPM
vintage on: 0dB = -18dBFS (ok)
vintage off: 0dB = -19dBFS

vintage on: 4dB = -18dBFS (ok ? I don't get their scale...)
vintage off: 4dB = -19dBFS

Trad VU
vintage on: 0dB = -13.9dBFS (ok)
vintage off: 0dB = -14.8dBFS

Extended VU
vintage on: 0dB = -13.9dBFS (ok)
vintage off: 0dB = -14.8dBFS

Log VU
vintage on: 0dB = -13.9dBFS (ok)
vintage off: 0dB = -14.8dBFS

Now the question: why do we have this vintage switch. Should Vegas get rid of it and scales be adjusted as expected ?

I can't see any use for this. I am missing some point ?

[edit again]
I just discovered that vintage mode corresponds to internal setting "RMS VU meter mode" = false.