Questions for Music Video Producers (Only)

musicvid10 wrote on 12/10/2009, 11:22 AM
Here's the short version:
I started learning Vegas 2 at the early part of the decade with the idea of producing music videos (thus my somewhat ubiquitous user name). That idea soon derailed when I re-discovered that bands lack an essential ingredient (a budget) and the amount of equipment I would have to rent and fold into my price.

Another venture (producing musical theater and live music revues) took off, and successfully so. Over the course of the last ten years, I have learned a lot more about event media production than I could have learned by any other means.

However with smaller houses (the economy) and skyrocketing production costs, I can no longer guarantee that these shows will produce a net income. So I am rethinking my original concept, and have come up with a startup plan, outlined in a rough "prospectus," which is obviously colored by my years of experience as a road musician and manager.
********

Please confine your responses to your real-world production experience, and not just speculation, of which anyone is capable. I can take brutal.

I am encouraged about my production workflow capabilities with the combination of PluralEyes and Multicam editing in Vegas Pro 8. My creative abilities are a work in progress, but seem to flow when I am excited about what I am hearing.

Will the idea fly with bands? Are they capable/motivated enough to provide their own footage? Am I leaving myself open to getting burned? Are there business considerations I am avoiding? Would bands be willing to pay about $300 a pop for this kind of service?

All real-world impressions welcomed, even the "Your idea stinks, because . . . " variety. Reactions from bands/musicians welcomed too, but I'm only interested in working locally, so this is so not a plug. [Edit: Already got one positive inquiry.]

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 12/10/2009, 11:50 AM
As I think I've mentioned, from 1993 until I had to quit for family reasons in 2002, I was a startup consultant. "Three guys in a garage" was my description of my client base. Most of my clients did something with media. Snapfish was perhaps the best-known.

With that as background, I looked at your proposal. Let me make sure I understand your reasons for doing this: your production costs have increased faster than your ability to raise your prices. This impacts not only your main business of videotaping various types of stage productions, but also might create the same problem back in your original business of music videos, should you decide to return to that business.

So, the underlying thinking is that if you can get the talent to become the production crew, and supply the video at no cost to you, then you can eliminate that whole production cost element, but still be able to charge enough for the post production work to make an attractive profit.

The problem, of course, is being able to get sufficient quality from the video shot by the band to be able to still be able to do your magic during production. The whole reason production costs are so high is that it takes a lot of work, skill, and talent to get good video.

Having said that, the idea might work if you can somehow enforce certain guidelines on how the band will shoot their video. You might supply the cameras, and have those cameras pre-set to settings that would ensure as uniform a result as possible. Also, the band would then have to use the same cameras for each part of their shoot. This would eliminate the problem of having different formats, qualities, etc. as you cut from one shot to the next. If you don't supply the equipment, I think you introduce too many variables.

The big issue, as pointed out in a recent thread about how to achieve great video quality, is lighting. I would guess that a large part of your field production cost on a music video would be the lighting setups. If using available light, the results could be all over the map. If using stage lights, I can 100% guarantee that amateur video camerapeople will blow out the highlights completely. I have quite a bit of experience in this because I am constantly asked to edit other people's video into music videos (stage productions, athletic events, home movies, etc.). One reason I have developed so many restoration techniques is that I've had to do what I can to motion stabilize (hence my Deshaker tutorials and scripts); color balance; match totally different cameras; convert 15 fps or 30p footage to 60i footage, etc.

So, if this project is to succeed -- and I think it would definitely be worthwhile to try it out and see what happens -- you need to develop a "kit" that you supply to the band, along with perhaps a 10-15 minute tutorial on proper setup and usage. Otherwise, you get the video equivalent of the 100 monkeys typing on 100 typewriters: eventually they may collectively write a complete sentence, but you'll have to wade through an awful lot of gibberish until you get to that little bit of magic.
musicvid10 wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:06 PM
your production costs have increased faster than your ability to raise your prices. This impacts not only your main business of videotaping various types of stage productions,

Correct, but with the other "elephant in the room" that I have also been producing the events themselves, with all the up-front costs and personal risks that entails. The video shooting and associated production costs are folded into the overall show budget, which is non-trivial, and which depends primarily on ticket sales to meet production costs and payroll. Kind of like AEG in a pistachio shell.

So, the underlying thinking is that if you can get the talent to become the production crew, and supply the video at no cost to you, then you can eliminate that whole production cost element, but still be able to charge enough for the post production work to make an attractive profit.

Absolutely correct on that, with the added gamble you noted that I might be expected to make "silk purses from sow's ears," in which case disclaimers and training have to be part of the bigger picture, without wasting a lot of my resources. Thanks for your comments and suggestions, and for making me think.
rmack350 wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:06 PM
The short story seems to be that you'll cut a band's self-produced video for free in order to get material for your reel. Later on you intend to hire out as an editor for bands that self-produce their own videos.

As I see it, the value you're adding is that you have an edit system and editing experience, which is no small thing, but you're not offering to help with the preproduction and production phases.

My guess is that if you want a paycheck you need to be pitching to someone who'll deal with that part of the video, or alternatively, you pitch that person to the bands that show interest.

When I have worked on music videos in the SF bay area the bands have all had someone acting as a producer, arranging for the gear, locations, schedules, transportation, etc. Even for a band with no money someone has to take this on. It doesn't have to be you but it could be someone you've recommended or even someone you're giving advice to.

It sounds like you've got contacts at theatrical venues, this might also be interesting to a band.

In a way, maybe one of the things you're adding is your experience and good advice. Maybe you agree to attend a few production meetings, things like that.

Rob Mack
TimTyler wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:21 PM
So why would a hip, young, poor, band want a jaded "old man" to edit their video when probably half their friends have cracked copies of FCP?

If you're serious about your proposal, I suggest removing all the rules and regulations and shortening it to "I will edit your self-produced video for $300. Call me." Add a link to your HD reel on Vimeo and wait for the phone to ring.
farss wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:27 PM
Who will provide the cameras and operators.
What use is a DVD to the band.
Bands need airplay, don't know about elsewhere but down here MTV and Rage want digibeta or HDCAM, neither cheap.
Only recent serious music vid I've been involved in, only encoding, was this one:

We did supply 3x EX cams for a recent live music vid shoot, band already signed to Sony, Sony paid our invoice for cameras, operators came from some production company.

I suspect you'll mainly pickup work form bands going nowhere, there's no shortage of work around, everyone I meet in the industry is busy, mostly going broke. There's a revolving door of people who want to have a go, doing great work for peanuts and then the bank's money runs out. One young guy who seems to be doing OK shoots music vids on 35mm, bands love the look, he uses ends of rolls and owns his own camera, only charges a couple of K for a music vid but he has a day job.
I shoot a lot of music / stage events, mostly for free and I can still get undercut. Hard to ask for money when the people staging the show are $40K out of pocket. Yeah, I'll never pay the rent doing this but I'm having one hell of a good time. There's obviously high end work around but that's all OB style work. My competition will turn up with 4 EX cams, a big crane etc and do it all on spec.

Bob.
Former user wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:33 PM
I was getting ready to reply when I saw Tim's reply and I will echo this. You said you could take brutal.

This is nothing personal.

I find your proposal full of negative statements, to the point that I would not want to work with you. You expect the band to be creative enough to concept and shoot the video, but not have any input on the outcome.

Statements like "I've likely got more experience than you..." says I am an old man set in his ways. Would be better worded such as "with your talent and my experience..."

At this point, I would not limit the music style, you never know when the next great country band might come from and you have already excluded them with your "I don't like that kind of music" attitude.

Again statements like "IF you are that good.." just come across cocky, not encouraging.

Like I said, I don't know you, these are just impressions I get from your proposal.

Dave T2
musicvid10 wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:42 PM
Loved that one, Tim. Gave me quite a chuckle, since many of the people I have mentored in the business see me in exactly that light, perhaps less so as they gain experience.

I am hoping that "experience" still holds some value and appeal for a band seeking a service, but unfortunately that mantle carries an added burden:
Knowing that bands and producers alike can (and do) get screwed by incompetence or pieces of paper they have signed in the past, and also towards maintaining my comfort level with various professional associations. I know, screw 'em, but I am well past that stage of my career.

An interesting point of view, though, and one that I appreciate.
musicvid10 wrote on 12/10/2009, 12:54 PM
DaveT2,
I don't think I could ever take anything you say as an offense, since you and I go all the way back to the Pinnacle Studio 5 forums (now that was a trauma-bonding experience!)

Your points are well-taken, and I will smooth some rough edges in the second draft; it was from the gut, and I just wanted to cut out some of the riff-raff seeking a handout, in a language they can understand (and there is plenty of riff-raff around the fringes of the club circuits). A circuit band with integrity and vision won't be put off by much of what I said, I suspect, but I may be wrong.

Thanks for your comments, I really am a jaded old man, so no lack of appreciation for your POV.
rmack350 wrote on 12/10/2009, 1:39 PM
One of the problems is that the line of people willing to do this stuff for cheap or free just to get a foot in the door stretches from here to eternity. And if you did work for free and the band gets some money, they'll often spend that money with a pro, which you definitely were not.

With the current plan, all I really see is an editor wanting to build a reel in the same way lots of editors try to do it. I've worked for these same guys. A few of them carved out niches but they became producers, not editors.

Happily, a music video producer is not the sort of guy who foots the bill in advance. This joy remains that of the band, or maybe the label they're under. Even then, that label takes the money out of what they'd promised the band.

So what are you bringing to the table that the other editors aren't? You'll need to communicate all of this, which of course you can do because you're in the communication business. Also, it's probably not good in a pitch to stress what you won't do. Just communicate the positives.

Finally, and John Meyer was reminding me of this (we've interviewed a lot of old VC's this year), what's your market? How big is it? Is your market big enough to sustain you and all the other people like you? If not, how will you make that market bigger? If you're successful, how are you going to service all your clients?

Rob Mack
Former user wrote on 12/10/2009, 3:48 PM
I forgot you were a Pinnacle refugee. I still use version 9 for time shifting. Thanks for taking my comments in the right spirit.

Good luck with your new venture.

Dave T2
LongTallTexan wrote on 12/10/2009, 4:11 PM
Well in my opinion. The easiest way to make money filming bands is:

hire camera ops with cameras for 100 per camera

get the band to cover hard cost ie. Camera ops and tape

edit a DVD

print 100 units short run for $350 at discmakers

sale them at the DVD release concert

use money to order 1000 for $1500

split proffit with bands 50/50

hang onto the masters and hope one makes it or develop them all into a tv series like I did.

I assure you this works as it has for me. Not overnight but it does. Just thought you would want to know, we aren't all going broke filming concerts.

L.T.
Www.texasroadhouselive.com
JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/13/2009, 8:48 AM
Having been in a rock band for 10 years and having edited other peoples video footage as an editor, I don't see how this would work to your advantage. Where is a starving rock band going to find cameras and people to operate them? How are you going to handle editing the footage from a camera operator that is inexperienced? Best case scenario is that this requires an enormous amount of post work, and worst case scenario the footage is outright unusable. You might as well call your new venture "Sow's Ear Productions" ;-)

We all know that the easiest edits are when we "shoot for the edit". What if you did the camera work yourself? If you want a 4 camera edit, you explain to the band that they play the song 4 times and each time you shoot from a different angle (wide, roaming, hero, etc.). You do this at whatever club they happen to be playing at in the afternoon. (we used clubs all the time as rehearsal studios) This gives you a controlled venue with controlled costs because you are just investing an afternoon of your time and not having to pay a production crew. You come back with well shot footage, all from the same camera, and you can start editing instead of deshaking and color matching. Syncing live performances to CD is easy in Vegas, I can show you the technique that I use. I do this all the time with great results. If they play to the CD that's even better. You could use the clubs PA to play the CD so no additional equipment is needed.

IMHO, anything that you expect the band to do except for playing their music is too much to ask. You are trying to push that hardest part onto someone else. I believe you should be figuring a way to make the hardest part easier to do for you. Maybe you get film students from a local school to help? Or if there is no such school, volunteer to teach an after school video course one day a week at the local high school, then use the students to do the band taping as experience for them. You'll be contributing to your community through volunteering, enhancing the students education, and solving a business problem all at the same time. There really are no good master / apprentice programs for kids anymore. This could be a good thing. Big business use summer interns from college all the time. Think outside the box to solve this.

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 12/13/2009, 8:58 AM
John,

Those are all thoughtful suggestions and just the kind of feedback I was looking for. Brings up lots of possibilities I hadn't thought of, and kind of shoots some holes in my "work from home" attitude. I have connections with an arts school that has an indy movie program.

You might as well call your new venture "Sow's Ear Productions" ;-)

That gave me the best laugh since I started this thread! Mind if I use it, or do you own the trade name rights?
I can see the animated production logo now.

;?)

JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/13/2009, 9:06 AM
> That gave me the best laugh since I started this thread! Mind if I use it, or do you own the trade name rights?

lol, I'm glad you liked that... The name is yours to use.

~jr