Quick clarification regarding progressive scan dvd

craftech wrote on 8/18/2009, 11:19 AM

I shot 1080/30p with my EX1. Loaded into Vegas with properties set same as source. Deinterlace method set to Blend fields, quality set to Best.

If I want to make a DVD it must be interlaced because only 24p footage can be used to make a progressive scan dvd. Is that correct?

I will be frameserving the video to Procoder 3 and muxing the audio with it using TsMuxer and feeding the resulting file into Movie Factory 6 plus to create an HD DVD using a DL standard disc.

I will also be creating an SD single layer DVD using one of the many semi-successful methods described here and elsewhere.

Thanks,

John

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Laurence wrote on 8/21/2009, 11:24 PM

OK now this is truly weird. I just ran off a 30p HDV source to 30p widescreen SD DVD. Tried playing it back in my Philips Bluray player connected to my old CRT HD TV via component cables. It looked terrible. The scan rate was all off. I tried a regular Blockbuster DVD and it looked great. I rerendered to a 60i flagged SD widescreen DVD. Same problem. This seemed too strange because I had done all this before. I looked at my setup trying to see what was different than the last time I did this. Right there in front of me sat a nice four source component to component switcher. I unplugged the switcher and the problem went away. In my case at least, the problem isn't with the Bluray player or the old 4:3 component in only HD TV. I suppose it's that I have a non-30p compatible component input switcher. Thinking about it more, my own homemade discs have no macrovision and are uprezzed to 1080i. Commercially made discs have macrovision that triggers my Bluray player not to uprez that content. It seems that the combination that my component switcher box can't handle is an SD 30p DVD that doesn't have macrovision.

Anyway, just on a lark, do you have a component input switcher? If you do, try plugging from your HD DVD player into your CRT TV directly and see if you still have that problem.

If that is the case, I would duplicate away and consider the problem solved. I seriously doubt that there are enough end customers with component only HD TVs let alone ones with component input switchers.

The other point is that my 30p SD DVDs from HD source material look great on CRT TVs even with the with the letterbox setting. Yours should too. If a component input switcher isn't your problem, you must be doing something wrong.

Laurence wrote on 8/21/2009, 11:31 PM

By the way on the source material I just tested, the sharpening looked great on ultra clean 30p shot HDV video from my Z7 but was too much on a couple of shots in the project that were 60i hdv material from my HVR-A1. On the older camera, the sharpening seemed to bring out mpeg and interlace artifacts. On the Z7, it looked very much like HD even though it was downrezzed.

In any case, I am now even more confident about making 30p SD DVDs from 30p HD material. The temporal motion is noticeably smoother than 24p and the image sharpness is every bit as good.

craftech wrote on 8/22/2009, 8:54 AM

Anyway, just on a lark, do you have a component input switcher? If you do, try plugging from your HD DVD player into your CRT TV directly and see if you still have that problem.
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My son has (at his apartment) the HD DVD player hooked through a receiver to the Sony CRT standard TV. I told him to try it direct. He said he would let me know.
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The other point is that my 30p SD DVDs from HD source material look great on CRT TVs even with the with the letterbox setting. Yours should too. If a component input switcher isn't your problem, you must be doing something wrong.
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The method I described above didn't work either. Where there is motion (zoom or pan) there is aliasing (horizontal spreading into tiny bands). There is also ghosting (Chromatic aberration) around most objects when viewed on a CRT. It's not only red either. And that's in daylight as well as stage lighting. No problem with HDTV viewing - only CRT.

My CRT setup is simple. SD DVD player hooked up to Toshiba 27 inch CRT via S-Video. A common setup for a lot of people still.

John

craftech wrote on 8/22/2009, 9:05 AM

By the way on the source material I just tested, the sharpening looked great on ultra clean 30p shot HDV video from my Z7 but was too much on a couple of shots in the project that were 60i hdv material from my HVR-A1. On the older camera, the sharpening seemed to bring out mpeg and interlace artifacts. On the Z7, it looked very much like HD even though it was downrezzed.
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Laurence,

Here are my project properties:
1920 x 1080, progressive scan, square pixels, 0 degrees, 29.97 (NTSC), 8-Bit, Best, Gaussian, None.

Timeline: ( Switches): Maintain Aspect Ratio, Smart Resample.

What would you Render As for an Mpeg 2 -720 x 480-60i, 16:9 (NTSC) DVDA 5.0 project? What settings would you use for the video stream to avoid the problems I described? Assume a CBR of 8000.

craftech wrote on 8/22/2009, 9:10 AM

What I am trying right now is frame rate doubling and interlacing for this problem.
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I tried this today and I am getting the same results. With any motion (zoom or pan) there is aliasing (thin horizontal lines) when viewed on a CRT. Even with daylight footage there is ghosting (Chromatic Aberration) irrespective of color around most objects. None of it appears on either a Plasma or LCD TV.

John

Spot|DSE wrote on 8/22/2009, 9:59 AM

International Image (Once owned by Sony) burns masters of 30p television shows as just that; 30p on standard def DVD. Viewing them on CRT, Plasma, or LCD, they're all tested before the DDP files are sent for replication. We used to have them test our VASST DVDs (also 30p) but after a couple dozen...we saw no more need. If it's going to become interlaced, it will be done by the player or display.

craftech wrote on 8/22/2009, 10:25 AM

Thanks for that Douglas,

I was wondering. Is there a reason DVDA does not have a progressive scan project choice?

Thanks,

John

megabit wrote on 8/22/2009, 10:28 AM

I'm in a PAL land, so more interested in 25p, but the problem is analogous. Also worth mentioning is that I shoot 25p exclusively.

Using another authoring program, I used to successfully burn both DVD's and BD's by simply sending my 25p Vegas renders to it. It never complained, and - which is most important - never re-compressed my progressive stuff, even though it's not DVD or BD specs-compliant.

Using DVDA, however, I cannot do this as DVDA will always recompress a progressive video stream other than 24p (and using just a single core of my quad CPU), so I preferred to render as 50i using the full speed of Vegas.

But - not having a CRT to check - I have always been uneasy about how my DVD's and BD's would look on a CRT. This thread has introduced even more doubts into my workflow.

I realize I'm being a bit off-topic here, but I thought I'd add my 3 cents after Spot wrote:

"International Image (Once owned by Sony) burns masters of 30p television shows as just that; 30p on standard def DVD"

Gosh, I'll never understand why 25p or 30 p are not part of the official DVD or BD specification!

Spot|DSE wrote on 8/22/2009, 10:51 AM

I would ass/u/me it's because it's not part of the supported spec.

megabit wrote on 8/22/2009, 11:05 AM

I assume that was an ironic answer, Spot :)

BTW, really glad to see you back here!

I'm myself after three neck spine surgeries, and still not well, unfortunately. Will try to always remember it could be worse, and follow your example in using strong will to make it through hard times!

craftech wrote on 8/22/2009, 11:07 AM

Piotr,

I think he was answering my question before you posted yours.

John

megabit wrote on 8/22/2009, 11:19 AM

Yes, John - can see it now.

Piotr