Real Auto Input

tmrpro wrote on 5/29/2003, 9:23 PM

I would like to make some suggestions/comments concerning V4:

I understand why latency occurs when dealing with application based monitoring as does any engineer who has worked with any recording medium.

With tape machines we do what we call "monitor tape", we aren't actually monitoring tape on record, we are monitoring the input of the tape machine when the machine is in record. When the track is punched out, we then are monitoring tape.

This is crucially important from a monitoring standpoint when using a multitrack recorder because the performer who is being recorded must hear themselves in their headphones (without any latency at all) in an acoustically isolated environment. They must also hear the track they are recording to, in playback, without any monitoring diferential whatsoever from the channel input, so when the track is punched in, there is absolutely no change in the way they are hearing their performance (recorded or live). Remember, the concept of multitrack is to record many different tracks at once or at different times. Recording different tracks on the same song at different times is also referred to as overdubbing.

The concept of monitoring tape can happen with V4's digital application-based technology. Sonic Foundry/Sony ... pay attention:

Put together a new and "required" protocol for sound card driver developers to meet that includes input monitor switching on the sound card that corresponds with the auto input function in your application.

Let's not spend time worrying about realtime effects and forget about the fundamentals of multitrack recording. It's physically impossible to have real time application monitoring. So, do it the way it has always been done by the pros...

The application NEEDS to have the ability to monitor its armed track while the tracks are rolling, then when punchin occurs, monitor the sound card's channel input. Yeah, you may have to use outboard effects and so forth, but it will remove the headache of input monitoring.

...Actually the bussing capabilities of V4 as it currently exsists would allow for using realtime effects if the monitored channel is bussed and the buss had the desired plugins in line, then the result could be consistant in monitoring from record to playback as an effects return works on a console.

Unfortunately, everyone that is trying to cut while monitoring EQ and Dynamic effects in real time would suffer ... But let me also add:

Engineers who need the type of functionality that a multitrack recorder has concerning monitoring and punchins are (in most cases) using very good outboard mic-preamps, compressors and EQs already and have developed their tracking sounds around that. Everyone I know that makes records would ONLY want to be using EQ & Dynamic plugin processing when they were mixing anyway.... NOT when they were doing a tracking session.

When you take care of that issue, go ahead and implement real time punchin capabilities.

I guarantee when you nail the two issues of auto input and real time punchins; tape machines, Nuendo & Pro-Tools will be considered completely obsolete.

But until you do, professionals who are paying big dollars on union scale master tracking sessions, will not want to deal with splitting tracks for punchins and multilateral monitoring setups that cause major confusion when working in a fast paced, high pressure scenario and for those reasons will not use V4.

I've done plenty of these type of high-end tracking sessions and the harder the technology is to operate, the easier it is to make very expensive and potentially career damaging mistakes.

I'm totally amazed that something so basic as these fundamental multitrack functions are not implemented yet when everything else in V4 is so very amazing. I can run 10 times more tracks and effects on V4 than I can in its competitor's applications. Totally stable with perfect sonic results.

Don't everyone jump down my throat on these comments, either. I am an endorsee and I totally love Sonic Foundry's products. I just want it to be the best stuff available and these changes will make THE difference. It will also make me (and many other industry pros) get out of multitrack recorders completely and start using Vegas exclusively.

BTW, congratulations on Sony's Aquisition of SF. I believe this will prove to be a very beneficial & successful business marriage!

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Comments

MacMoney wrote on 6/2/2003, 11:13 PM

We Cool.
Billy would like to say hello please e-mail him.

Hello everyone 8-)

George Ware

SonyEPM wrote on 6/3/2003, 9:07 AM

Once again, George shows up...and everybody mellows out. I was just telling him that last week.

George, how about sharing one of those soothing Vegas projects with all of us? I'd be happy to host it...

MacMoney wrote on 6/3/2003, 9:32 AM

Ha-Ha Dave he uses it all up on Tony, Greg, Billy and Myself
When he gets here he's out of ideas!

Rednroll wrote on 6/3/2003, 9:52 AM

The only thing that I can say, is that in all my professional career of working in recording studios with various types of "professional" people. I always find the people who are truly pros and famous in their industry, have never come in wearing it on their sleave. It's the people who aren't pro's and want to act like they're better than anyone in the room, who are constantly reminding you of who they are and what they do. I've done work with Sylvester Stalone, Jeff Daniels, Sigourne Weaver, Emimen, Kid Rock,
D-12, George Clinton, Insane Clowns, Creed. All down to earth professional people to work with, none of them reminding you of who they are, but I get one of the members from P-funk or a smaller group being promoted from one of the big guys listed above in the studio, and watch out, here comes the "don't you know who I am mentality?".

Really sounds like someone above. It's more of an insecurity act, that I've never been impressed with, by trying to convince everyone they're on top of the world and they're sooooo much better than everyone else. Hey TMR"pro", is that "pro" in your name to convince us that you're a "pro" or is it your own little security blanky? Why don't you remind us one more time, of how you get paid by major record labels, maybe if you say it enough times without answering the questions you'll convince everyone in this forum of how much better you are than everyone else.

Rednroll wrote on 6/3/2003, 10:14 AM

"After being very frustrated by Brian Franz on the Sonic Foundry forum and getting caught up in his style of childish behavior, I decided to see if I could find out anything about his work and background. I ran a search for rednroll on Google.com and this is the result it gave me:"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rednroll

Really now...this is hysterical how I can make people spend hours trying to dig up information on me. What? Don't have you're own life? If you want to know, why don't you just ask me and save yourself some time? You won't find anything listed under "Rednroll", it's a nickname I've had since the 8th grade. There is ONE possible item that may be listed if you really want to dig. One of the first mastering jobs I did on my own was on a 200Mhz PC set up in my basement done through an IBM 1/8" noisy sound card. The artist you may actually find out there somewhere listed under "Federation Records". The artists name is "Bazarre". You might know him better now if you look in the liners of any EMIMEN CD or you might notice he's one of the guys in the group "D-12"....or as we know them in D-town..."The Dirty Dozen". Anyways, they wanted a name for my studio at the time to list in the CD liner....I didn't have one yet...so I rattled off "Rednroll Productions". That's in the "Bazarre" release, and probably the only place you will see that name listed anywhere. Here's another artist to look at "Paradime". You'll see him being promoted by Kid Rock, currently on tour in Iraq with Kid Rock. You'll see the name "The Groove Factory" under "Paradime's" CD liner.

tmrpro wrote on 6/3/2003, 10:29 AM

Red (the engine ear),

Not that I really care because you've already shown your lack of knowledge concerning audio recording here, but I've looked for your name associated with every single one of the artists and actors you've mentioned and there isn't anything (not one single thing) I can find anywhere associated with anything. Talk about a name dropper! I think you are a nothing/nobody or you don't disclose your real identity because you are a coward. That probably doesn't matter until you start questioning other people's methods in their field of expertise. It is at that point you need to show your credentials to justify your position, of which you have none.

Like the illiterate you are, you don't understand the definition of professional, either. I have been exclusively employed professionally through nonexclusive contracts in the music industry for over 20 years. I'm not saying that to make anyone proud of me, I'm simply justifying my position. I'm no better than anyone else. I didn't come in here thinking I'm on top of the world. Anyone here who has been convinced otherwise by me here in this forum, please stand corrected.

BTW, "Pro" as in "tmrpro" is an acronym for Productions.

Furthermore, in your last post in this thread you asked for a response concerning RF, EMF & induction, I answered it and you have nothing to say because you know I'm right and you have no solid knowledge of electronics or audio engineering. Based on your ignorant responses, you: like a child, are an uneducated amateur who tries to associate himself with people who make no mention of your "claimed" association and really has no business commenting here.

Rednroll wrote on 6/3/2003, 11:10 AM

"PARALLEL does not mean that the signal goes "directly" into your sound card Dr. Red (the engine ear), it means that it is tied, directly, in parallel to whatever electronics you have in your magnificent console and you ARE inducing the noise of your fascinating shielded cables that are properly grounded and tied to the monitor inputs and whatever low quality electronic mass of components at that input."

That's your answer for "induction", "EMF", and "RF"? As to what they are, and how my setup is creating this? What does the price of bananas in China have to do with audio engineering or studio wiring? How does my setup have any more "induction" than anyone else's? How does it have more "EMF"? How does it have more "RF"? I can tell you until I'm blue in the face why it has less, but first I would like some FACTS from you with your obscure information as to WHY you say it has more. Here you want me to reply for you?

Q: Why does red's method have more "induction", "EMF" and "RF" than anyone elses?

A: Because I'm paid time and time again, by major record labels for professional recording services.

Ohhh...It's sooo much clearer now. I'll take 2 bunches of bananas now.

drbam wrote on 6/3/2003, 11:18 AM

In addition to demostrating proficiency as an engineer/producer, a hallmark of a TRUE professional is also possessing and then USING professional communiction skills, ie; respectful, understanding, tolerant, etc., not only with clients but also with peers. In my view, a real test of professional maturity in this regard is how well one is able to deal with those that they disagree with or feel have attacked them in some way. As evidenced by this thread (and others like it) reactive defensiveness only provokes more of the same. Please, lets move on to something more productive. . . like helping each other make better music.

My $.02

drbam

tmrpro wrote on 6/3/2003, 12:21 PM

******Q: Why does red's method have more "induction", "EMF" and "RF" than anyone elses?******

...Because, by running a parallel connection (splitting the output of your mic-pre) the electronics of your monitor's input and everything tied to it are influenced in to your track input on your sound card. This causes the production of an electrical current in a circuit by varying the magnetic field of the otherwise unvaried output of your mic-pre. That is precisely why REAL audio engineers tie the monitor to the back end of the audio chain AFTER the input of your recording medium.... hence monitoring tape and defining the need for auto input!

I'll be glad to answer any more of your audio engineering 101 questions in a professional manner.

Rednroll wrote on 6/3/2003, 1:29 PM

Ok, you ready for some schoolin now electronics wizard 101?

RF= Radio frequencies
These are signals entering the audio cables from outside sources (ie radio broadcasts and such). These signals will enter audio cables with the least resistance to GROUND. Thus, if you use shielded audio cables that are properly grounded, they enter the the SHIELD and go directly to GND, just like an antenna. Thus, the RF signals will not enter into the audio signal paths. In the event that they DO enter the audio signals, using BALANCED outputs/Inputs have what is known as COMMON MODE REJECTION. Thus the signals that are COMMON on the positive and negative audio signals get rejected. This means the RF signal would be the same in both the negative and positive wires, thus get rejected. The audio signals in these same wires are 180 degrees out of phase and thus audio is NOT rejected in Balanced circuits and is what get's recorded. So how is RF a problem with the method I've mentioned? Did me running parallel wires just increase the RF signal strength from a near by radio station?

EMF= Electromatic Fields.
These fields are generated by running electricity through a wire. Thus you are correct in one respect. If the current in a wire increases due to a drop in the resistance then the EMF will increase. But on the otherside, the Resistance in the wires decrease due to a parallel connection, thus the EMF will decrease due to this factor. In either case these are signals that get generated from the audio cable and transmit similar to an RF signal. Again, these signals will enter into the SHIELD of the audio cable and get sent to GROUND. There is a possibility that some of these signals escape and can couple into other audio cables running parallel to each other, but again if that parallel running wire also has a SHIELD, it acts like an antenna and this EMF goes directly to GROUND. And once again, COMMON MODE REJECTION also comes into account using BALANCE equipment.

Induction:
All wires have induction, the higher the resistance within the wire the higher the induction will be. Thus, with 2 wires in parallel the resistance goes down, thus the induction decreases.

The only factor that could happen in this set up is that when connecting audio signals the OUTPUT of a device, must be LOW IMPEDANCE, while the INPUT of a device must be HIGH IMPEDANCE. Audio equipment is usually designed with a minimum of a 10 to 1 ratio of these INPUT/OUTPUT Impedances and most exceed that ratio. Thus, the only thing being done in this scenario is that the Input Impedance is being lowered due to a parallel connection. This is negligible, due that most audio equipment is designed to handle at least 4 parellel connections without signal degradation. The fact is that the current of the audio signal increases due to the the LOWER INPUT Inpedance, but the Voltage remains the same. But since the current increased, it's actually a stronger audio signal being recorded.

Aside from all this information, I mentioned I use a Mic/pre with a digital out and an Analog out. I mentioned the other scenario for people like yourself that might not have that option.

Let me know when you want to discuss RF, EMF, and INDUCTION any day, and this electrical "engine ear" who designs audio equipment and who uses this knowledge everyday will gladly inform you some facts, instead of the crap you've been reading off of those cracker jack boxes.

MacMoney wrote on 6/3/2003, 2:25 PM

>When he gets here he's out of ideas!

"LOL" Ron you are SO busted!!!!

Tony Mac

tmrpro wrote on 6/3/2003, 3:21 PM

Dr. Brian Electromatic,

Your description of induction has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever seen ...next to "Electromatic Fields"!

You have the answer to your question, it has already been defined and it is correct. Face it ... your wrong.

But we really are having fun with your definitions! LOL!!! :)))

I'm not wasting everyone's time on another response to you.

SonyEPM wrote on 6/3/2003, 3:33 PM

since we're having so much fun debating...

Tape is dead. True or False? (explain)

tmrpro wrote on 6/3/2003, 3:38 PM

Tape is dead for me.

Rednroll wrote on 6/3/2003, 4:03 PM

"Your description of induction has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever seen ...next to "Electromatic Fields"!"

Yep, it's as about as funny as yours. Oh what was that again? Oh sorry I missed it, or was that the description of the price of bananas in China compared to RF, EMF, and induction again?

Tape is dead for most Dave, but some artist still insist on cutting on 2inch for that "Analog warmth". It's still very profitable doing the transfers to digital and restoration processes though.

tmrpro wrote on 6/3/2003, 5:04 PM

******Tape is dead for most Dave, but some artist still insist on cutting on 2inch for that "Analog warmth". It's still very profitable doing the transfers to digital and restoration processes though.******

...But according to Dr. Electromatic, when performing these transfers, be sure to connect up to four other devices, in parallel, to each of the inputs of your sound card(s) so you can have a "stronger audio signal"...

... LMAO!!! :)))

Rednroll wrote on 6/3/2003, 5:33 PM

Anymore jabs you wish to take at me? You're really digging aren't you? Glad I can get under the skin of such a "pro" producer.

BTW...the abbreviation for "producer" is "prod." and an acronym is suppose to spell a word, I haven't seen any words in the English language that has no vowels in the middle and end with 1 vowel of "o". You really know how to show off your credibility don't you? :-)

BTW, "Pro" as in "tmrpro" is an acronym for Productions.

tmrpro wrote on 6/3/2003, 5:53 PM

Dr. Chinese Banana Boy,

I find it interesting how your ignorance has a continuing reciprocation. It's really funny how you make up your own definitions for things. Check the definition of acronym the next time you pick up your dictionary. Since when does an acronym need to follow the rules of the english language? .... Oh since Dr. Chinese Banana Boy said so!!!

And now your a professor of English right? LMAO! What in the heck language is this:

******BTW...the abbreviation for "producer" is "prod." and an acronym is suppose to spell a word, I haven't seen any words in the English language that has no vowels in the middle and end with 1 vowel of "o".******

Let's go to English 101 now!!!

1. After "spell a word" there should be a period to complete the sentence.
2. The next sentence should have the word "have" instead of "has" and the remainder of that sentence is just completely wrong.

... I'll just have to give the poor litte Electromatic an "F" for today's English lesson!!! LOL!

...You do have a doctrine in the study of Chinese Bananas, right?

You should change your username to "Electromatic"!

LMAO!!!! :))))

You are nothing more than a complete fool, Electromatic Boy.

JohanAlthoff wrote on 6/3/2003, 8:29 PM

I'd say tape has gone from being the universal storage media to a method of achieving a certain sound, just like old microphones or old musical equipment. But when transparancy of the medium is top priority, tape is rock solid, flat out DEAD.

At least to me.

PipelineAudio wrote on 6/3/2003, 10:26 PM

Tape isnt dead by a long shot. For a lot of people its the medium of choice if the budget allows. I still have my machines, and I'll use my 2 track as a special effect from time to time. and also mix to it in addition to digital, and we choose which one to use at the mastering lab, tape doesnt always win but it does quite a bit.

Personally, with the crappy ass bands of today, digital editing is a necessity, so tape isnt usually an option for most local bands I record.

PipelineAudio wrote on 6/3/2003, 10:32 PM

As for the real topic of this thread;

Me and Rednroll and DSE have argued till blue in the face, and I summ up their position as " The vegas way is fine, and thats all you will get and dont bother asking for anything more"

My position is " The Vgas way is cool, and really good for some things, but if this is to be considered a professional app, we NEED the choice for auto input"

the vegas way works great for a lot of stuff, but what about when you are punching guitars? With the vegas way the guy hears the old guitar AND whatever he is playing now up till the punch in point, then at the punch drops madly in level to only the guitar being recorded. VERY unnerving for the guitar player

Professionals will INSIST on at least the option of auto input. PERIOD. They may come to like the other choices as well but auto input cant be denied if Vegas is to be taken seriously.

Guys that dont record bands for a living can argue all they want, but speaking from experience from the highest highs to the lowest lows of the engineer side of the glass, auto input MUST be an option

Rednroll wrote on 6/4/2003, 9:25 AM

Pipeline,
I totally agree with you. And if you go through my original posts in this thread, it shows that I didn't say there wasn't a need for it. I started off by trying to offer another solution, one that "works for me". You can easily see from there that this "pro" has a bug up his ass with me and was looking for a flame war. No problem, if that makes someone feel better, I say bring it on.

tmrpro wrote on 6/4/2003, 11:50 AM

Hey Pipe,

I totally agree.

You and I are definately on the same page. I even agree with your summation on tape.

Tape died for me at TMR Productions when hard drives came down far enough in price to use them as the medium.

Unfortunately, my method of multitracking does not include the use of Vegas because of its lack of functionality in monitoring (no auto input).

Instead, I track (at my studio) with a Tascam MX2424 and when I've completely finished tracking and I'm ready to mix, I export my tracks over my network to my main computer with MX View, then mix in Vegas. Sometimes I cut to tape when I work at other facilities and do the additional step of realtime transfers into the 2424.

I store all my completed projects on IBM deskstar 40G hard drives which include all the tracks, mixes, masters, templates, PQ lists and any other additional information that corresponds with that project. Since I have an IDE carrier in all of my computers, the process of snapping in a hard drive is very quick and simple. When I'm finished, the hard drive goes into a static free bag, it's boxed and labeled and it becomes the backup for that project.

tmrpro wrote on 6/4/2003, 12:07 PM

Hey Red,

Take it easy. I love you man. Chill out.

I totally appreciate your solution for monitoring and frankly I have been using that method (without the donut) when I'm the only one recording. But it only happens when I've already transfered stuff over to Vegas and I'm mixing that I do any tracking (& discover a needed part) because I can't get through the headache (personally) without auto input.

Sometimes I use a second engineer, too. It's one thing for me to understand how the multi-lateral monitoring thing is going, but if I have to explain it to my second .... Anyway, it can get real messy.

Most of the time, I have to hire huge ego (bigger than yours and mine) musicians and singers that freak completely out when you can't get their headphones right.

It can make a session turn bad really fast when one guy is moaning... I'm sure you know how that goes.

Anyway, it really has been fun up to this point, but I'm calling a truce. I don't wanna fight and I won't call you names anymore. I wanna learn and I want us all to grow ... including Sonic Foundry/Vegas with auto input...

Hell, I'd even give up the realtime punchins if I could just monitor correctly with the program!