John_Cline wrote on 7/10/2008, 8:12 PM
Regular HDV is 25 Mbit MPEG2 compressed with 384K MPEG audio wrapped in a transport stream. Cineform HDV is compressed with the Cineform codec and uses 48k linear PCM audio wrapped in a .AVI container. So, they're really two completely different things.

You can't render DVCPro HD in Vegas without a third-party VFW-compatible DVCPro HD codec.
Serena wrote on 7/10/2008, 8:15 PM
Since you use Cineform I guess that you already understand that the HDV and Cineform formats are different. That HDV is a long GOP 4:2:0 format and Cineform converts that to the superior 4:2:2 avi format. Your client should explain why they prefer m2t but presumably it has to do with their workflow -- FCP, for example?
riredale wrote on 7/11/2008, 1:08 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if what you're getting out of the camera is HDV over Firewire, then using 4:2:2 won't gain anything, since the format coming over is already 4:2:0. The doubled vertical chroma resolution will be for naught because there isn't any data to put in those slots.

Also, HDV is HDV--the image is the same whether it's carried as an m2t format or converted into the Cineform format. Both have advantages; m2t is very compact (12GB/hr), while Cineform shows much less deterioration over multiple generations. My experience says that over, say, 2 generations there isn't much difference, but if you need to go 10 generations you'll see an obvious benefit with Cineform.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/11/2008, 2:07 PM
riredale - what constitutes a generation.

That is one thing that has confused me - please elaborate for me if you would.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt |
Serena wrote on 7/11/2008, 7:46 PM
>>>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if what you're getting out of the camera is HDV over Firewire, then using 4:2:2 won't gain anything,<<<

I suggest you go to the Cineform site to check your statement.
riredale wrote on 7/12/2008, 9:29 AM
Blu: I've assumed that "generation" means the image data undergoes a decode/recode cycle. The Cineform people used to have an interesting page that showed how m2t images would gradually degrade over many generations, while Cineform images wouldn't. For me personally, I didn't see the need for that benefit since I didn't usually go beyond a couple of generations, if that. My workflow usually involves the use of GearShift and proxies, so my final DVD render comes from the raw m2t clips after GearShifting back.

Serena: I briefly jumped over to the Cineform website but I'm not sure specifically where to look. I have no doubt that 4:2:2 (and 4:4:4, for that matter) offer great benefits for many applications, but have always assumed that if the source material was 4:2:0 there would be little benefit from the upshifting. My analogy would be if an audio source was 16-bit / 44.1 data, then upshifting in the studio to 24 bit / 192K audio would offer little benefit. But my wife tells me I'm wrong on a number of things; this could be one of them.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/12/2008, 10:10 AM
So basically, as long as I don't render out my clips and then bring them back in, I'm not creating another generation clip. I've not done that while working in Vegas Pro ever so I'm guessing it isn't an issue for those working straight from the timeline and then rendering out from there.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt |
CClub wrote on 7/12/2008, 10:28 AM
Just recently I've benefitted from the fact that Cineform avi's maintain their quality in multiple generations: when I archive footage now, I'm saving it with Cineform intermediates. They are obviously larger than m2t's, but they're much smaller than uncompressed avi's. When I'm done with a project that I know I'll have future business with from a customer, I load a track with various clips, archive them to individual Cineform clips via Veggie Toolkit software, and it reduces my initial HDD space from approximately 500 GB to about 75 GB of useful clips. I load that on a backup drive that I only need to access 1-2 times/year, delete the huge project files, and I'm done.
Serena wrote on 7/12/2008, 7:04 PM
>>>have always assumed that if the source material was 4:2:0 there would be little benefit from the upshifting<<<

riredale, a quite reasonable assumption, but converting to Cineform does a little more. This demonstration is related to the old Connect HD, but gives some of the flavour: conversion[/link]
newmediarules wrote on 7/21/2008, 7:21 PM
Can I render any of these formats (which my client insists on) in V8 as is?


Regular HDV (the smallest format)
8bit - Hi def ( largest Format)

If not, what exactly are my options?

Thx so much...
kairosmatt wrote on 7/22/2008, 6:03 AM
DVCProHD-requires additional software like raylight:

Regular HDV-yup, and if its cuts only, I believe it doesn't re compress.

For Hi-Def, I guess you mean uncompressed? Then yes, Vegas can do uncompressed HD AVIs (or quicktimes for that matter).