Rendering question

plasmavideo wrote on 6/6/2006, 10:38 AM

"By any other form" might be a clue. What format are you trying to render to? If it's DV, you might want to make sure that the clips you are editing are set to "Lower Field First in their properties, and that any rendering is done using "Lower Field First" in the options menu. It sounds as if it might be a field order problem. Reversal of field order is most notable on motion.

Tom

speedy33417 wrote on 6/6/2006, 12:34 PM

Sorry. I wasn't sure what information might be helpful with my question.
The process starts from a DV tape that I transfer to my computer. I get an AVI file with the dimensions of 720x480, 29 fps, 24 bit, DVCodec.
This file plays beautifully on my computer, but when I try to trim anything or burn it to DVD it needs to be rendered.
Right now I'm playing with Windows Media file format, which would also allow me to post it to a web server for viewing on the internet.
In Sony Vegas Studio the properties is set to lower field first, 0.9091 NTSC DV, 29.970 NTSC and best quality.
When I hit render as, I select Windows Media Video V9 and 3Mbps Video.

The funny thing is that I only have this problem with the footage from my DV camcorder.
I also use a regular Canon camera to shoot short footage and that can be worked on just fine.

Thanks for any help.

plasmavideo wrote on 6/7/2006, 7:18 AM

Sorry. I'm still a bit confused. You say that if you trim anything it needs to be rendered or make a DVD it needs to be rendered. True for files for DVD - not sure why just trimming something would need a render, but that aside - where are you seeing the motion artifacts you are talking about? On the computer in Windows Media Player with the finished WMV file? - on the DVD player on a regular TV when playing back your burned DVD? - on the timeline in Vegas after you've rendered? The variables need to be sorted through so we can possibly spot where the trouble lies.

Another thing you mentioned. You say that the video from your regular Canon camera looks OK. Is that a Canon still camera that you are using the mpeg movie mode with? If so, I believe that records in progressive mode, not interlaced, and you say it plays back fine - which takes me back to field order problems with the DV footage which IS interlaced. If your files that you are seeing the problem on are ones intended for computer playback, you might want to render them as progressive in Windows Media Encoder. For a DVD you would render them as interlaced, lower field first in the mpeg encoder.

I'm not familiar with the "light" version of Vegas, but it looks like it's the same principal without a number of it's big brother's features.

Bob N wrote on 6/7/2006, 7:42 AM

I have found that it's best to edit the avi and then render it to an avi with a new filename. Then use the avi in Architect to burn the DVD.

speedy33417 wrote on 6/7/2006, 8:05 AM

Thsnk for thrying to help me. As you can see I'm not a guru in this field. :)

So, the Canon camera is in fact a still camera (Canon Powershot S2 IS). The camcorder is a Panasonic PV-GS250.
I checked the Canon camera records an AVI file 30fps, 1981 kbps, 24 bi, LEAD-MJPEG.
And the Panasonic camcorder also records an AVI file, but it's 29fps, 84kbps, 24 bit, DVCodec.

The reason why I'm saying that it needs to be rerendered is (I could be wrong), because Vegas Studio only saves a vf file. Video formats can only be saved after rendering. Am I just totally wrong here? I want to cut out parts of the footage and save it in the same AVI format. Does it not have to be rerendered?

The problem occurs as soon as I start the rendering in the preview window. And it's not much better after rendering is done and I open the file for viewing on my computer.

This is where I'm at now. All help is appriciated!

Bob N wrote on 6/7/2006, 8:20 AM

I'm using a Canon Elura 85 DV camcorder. Capturing results in an AVI file of 5Gb for a 20 minute segment. I edit the video and save it and Make Movie and select the AVI format, getting another 5Gb avi file. But now I delete the 1st one to get my hard drive space back.

mbryant wrote on 6/7/2006, 8:37 AM

Vegas, like most (all?) editors is non-descructive. So the edits themselves are saved in the .veg (or in your case .vf) file. You will need to render out to apply the edits. If you render back to DV avi, Vegas will "smart render", only re-rendering the parts you changed. Parts you didn't change will be re-rendered. If you render to a format other than DV avi (e.g. mpeg2 for DVD, or .wmv for web posting), then Vegas will always need to render the entire project.

Mark

plasmavideo wrote on 6/7/2006, 8:58 AM

>> Thsnk for thrying to help me. As you can see I'm not a guru in this field. :)

No problem - we all started somewhere! This is a great forum for all kinds of answers - even political ones at times : )

>>>The reason why I'm saying that it needs to be rerendered is (I could be wrong), because Vegas Studio only saves a vf file. Video formats can only be saved after rendering. Am I just totally wrong here? I want to cut out parts of the footage and save it in the same AVI format. Does it not have to be rerendered?

OK, I assume that the VF file is the term used for the project file in Vegas Studio, so you are correct that that is not a video file.

If you do cuts only editing, that is, just trim a clip, you do not have to render it if you are saving it as a DV AVI file. Make sure that your project settings are for NTSC DV. When you have finished making your cuts to the file, if it's like Vegas, you then do a FILE/RENDER AS and then pick the NTSC DV preset to save your video. I'm wondering if your project settings are not correct, giving you problems when you preview? For instance, if you want to make a WMV file, typically you would not make your project settings as Windows Media - you would still use NTSC DV as the project settings, and then render the video with a WMV template. If the project settings are set for Windows Media, and you put a DV file on the timeline, then preview would be messed up, as Vegas would need to transcode that DV file on the fly,and I don't know what that would look like on preview, probably lots of artifacts and dropped frames as you describe.

Earlier in the paragraph I mentioned that there was no rendering invloved with just trimmed video or cuts only. If you apply any effects to your clip, or put a transition between clips, then Vegas must render those portions of the timeline, and your preview will probably go to a lower resolution and framerate. When you the do a RENDER AS to save the completed video, Vegas wil render the file as it's saving it, no matter what format you are going to.

>>>>The problem occurs as soon as I start the rendering in the preview window. And it's not much better after rendering is done and I open the file for viewing on my computer.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you are looking at the raw footage outside of Vegas and it looks fine, but when you put it on the timeline the preview looks funny before you've actually added any effects or transitions - is that correct? If so, it does sound like a project setting of some kind.

Hope we can help you sort this out.

Tom

speedy33417 wrote on 6/7/2006, 11:15 AM

I took BOB N's advice and I rendered my video as an AVI file. I also set the fps to 29.000 which isn't available on the drop down list, so I had to manually enter it.
With that setting I got great results. I even burned a DVD and it looked great on TV.

Thanks!!!

plasmavideo wrote on 6/7/2006, 12:40 PM

>>> I took BOB N's advice and I rendered my video as an AVI file. I also set the fps to 29.000 which isn't available on the drop down list, so I had to manually enter it.
With that setting I got great results. I even burned a DVD and it looked great on TV. > > > >

OK, that's what has me concerned - that 29.97 fps was not on the drop down list. Which drop down list are you referring to? This seems to indicate that things are not quite set up right yet, as 29.97 is standard NTSC television frame rate and should be the default for your project from a DV file and available as the default preset. If it had defaulted to 24 fps, then your project was setup for PAL, not the US standard. Does the drop down menu appear when you are doing the RENDER AS? And if so, what preset are you using? Does it appear in the project properties setup?

NOTE: When Bob referred to 29 fps, he was using an abbreviation for 29.97. You should be using 29.97 as your framerate for television. Computer based video is another thing all together, and the standards for that are generally 15fps or 30fps depending on your target palyback application.

Tom

speedy33417 wrote on 6/8/2006, 5:51 AM

The drop down menu I was referring to was in the properties menu. 29.970 was the default, but I was confused with the 29/29.97/30 fps thing, so I basically created my own custom frame rate I guess. :)

Now I only have one more question. As we seemed to have solved my problem for burning US standard DVDs for myself. How do I burn PAL based DVDs for family members in Europe?

Where do I change the settings to PAL? Right now I import my footage in Vegas, make the editing then hit render as with the NTSC DV settings.
Then import that to DVD A to add my menus then burn the DVD.

What do I do different to make a PAL DVD?

plasmavideo wrote on 6/8/2006, 6:37 AM

I must defer to others for the PAL question, as I have limited experience with making a PAL conversion look right. I've converted PAL to NTSC, but have not gone the other way, and not in Vegas at all, nor have I burnt a PAL DVD. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

Sounds like you're on your way! Hope you'll have a lot of fun editing video. It can become addicting.

Good luck!

Tom

Steve Mann wrote on 6/9/2006, 6:54 PM

Just send the NTSC disc - the players in Europe usualy play NTSC discs with no problems.

stewade wrote on 6/9/2006, 7:43 PM

I use the GS250 cam and have no probs (in PAL)... And you're right, they are a very nice cam for their size (and price).

A question. Which Sony "AVI" render template are you using? You shouldn't render to AVI uncompressed format (did I get that advice myself from here?)

I do all my editing/cuts etc. and render to PAL DV. (found under the Render AS -> AVI -> Template).

Projects undergo a final render to MainConcept Mpg2 ~prior~ to DVDA (more control over bps this way).

I do 3Mbps WMV files no probs with Render As straight from Vegas too. A shift in frame rate (15fps or 30fps) makes no difference to the footage - even from 25i PAL.

Vids look sweet as...

I suspect exactly the same process should occur with NTSC... I'm running a PAL->NTSC->PAL render now to see what happens. More on this very soon....

Postscript...

Tested render from PAL footage to NTSC - No probs.
Took the NTSC render and rendered back to PAL - no difference from original that I could spot. The shift from 25fps->29fps->25fps caused no probs. Probably no big deal but it might placate your concerns a little...