Rendering to a 10bit intermediate

megabit wrote on 7/30/2010, 5:55 AM

I've just wanted to experiment a little with using 10bit intermediate for heavy CC-ing and grading, in order to compare results with those of using the 8 bit mxf files (either 4:2:0 from my EX1, or 4:2:2 from my nanoFlash).

So, I downloaded both the Cineform Neo HD trial (works great - I especially like the Active Metadata use in First Light), and the FREE Avid DNxD codec packages.

Unfortunately, even though all the the Avid DNxHD package-included codec options are available in Vegas now, NONE is actually working - except for the "Avid 1:1x" for .mov (which is almostuncompressed, I reckon, but only 24bpp). But I'm getting "Medialooks" water-marked clips - and it's supposed to be a free package....

When choosing any other option (including DNxHD itself), Vegas starts rendering but quits immediately with the error message that the selected codec is not supported.

What am I doing wrong? Or is it some sort of a Quicktime problem my Vegas installation is having?

Piotr

PS. Some other (unrelated ?) quirk is that DVCPRO HD (yeah, I know it's just 8bit) only works when I selectively pre-render - NOT when I want to e.g. render to another track....

Edit: OK, I played a little more with the Avid codec, and here's what I found (all in Vegas Pro 9.0e):

- the DNxHD codec can be made to work; it's just that the "Configure" window is corrupt and displays in any but a visible place with 2 monitors active, but only one actually turned on :). After finding the window, I was able to select the correct settings - and I've got a 185 Mbps, 4:2:2, 10bit clip, ready for hardcore editing!

- as to the watermark, it's quite smart actually: when you generate a .mov intermediate inside Vegas (I suppose it's the same with any other non-Avid NLE), and play it back outside (e.g. using WMP), it DOES have the "Medialooks" logo in the upper-left corner (it's not visible inside the NLE, though).

However, when - after all the edits and tweaks to it - you render it out to some final delivery format (in the case of Vegas, the MainConcept MPEG-2, for instance), the logo is GONE!

Meaning: the AVID DNxHD codec works fine as NLE-agnostic, 10 bit intermediate, and is indeed free for final delivery.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 7/30/2010, 10:34 AM

With your note that the dropdown is but a sliver in Windows, which needs to be mentioned from time to time, my Avid LE codec package (downloaded from the Avid site) places no watermarks on the renders. Has this changed recently?

robwood wrote on 7/30/2010, 3:10 PM

"the "Configure" window is corrupt and displays in any but a visible place with 2 monitors active, but only one actually turned on."

ummm

i understand that the configure window is barely visible, but i don't get the solution you've posted. :) could u retype that sentence using different words? i also would like to SEE the configure window in full... if you've figured it out, great!

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/30/2010, 4:08 PM

megabit said:

Meaning: the AVID DNxHD codec works fine as NLE-agnostic, 10 bit intermediate, and is indeed free for final delivery

I've been saying this for the past 2 months. I only use DNxHD intermediates now. They perform flawlessly in Vegas Pro 9.0e 32 & 64 bit for me. They don't lose the beginning and end of the clip the way Cineforms HDLink does (and this is a known issue that they can't resolve - check the DVinfo forums). The clips are truly cross platform. In addition, the clips - transcoded via MPEG Stream Clip (m2t and/or DSLR MOV files) or TEMPEnc (for the rest not recognized by QT/Apple MPEG-2 Reader) retain clip accuracy to the original - something Cineform's HDLink does not do.

Cliff Etzel
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gpsmikey wrote on 7/31/2010, 7:44 AM

"i understand that the configure window is barely visible, but i don't get the solution you've posted. :) could u retype that sentence using different words?"

Sounds like things I have had happen - I believe he means it put the window on the second monitor (which was not turned on). Takes a while sometimes to tumble to that one (I have done the same thing with other apps). :-)

mikey

farss wrote on 7/31/2010, 8:19 AM

If you simply want to compare results then the Sony YUV codec comes in 10 bit. The only down side is the rather large file size.

Bob.

R0cky wrote on 7/31/2010, 8:33 AM

The configure window is corrupted for me too. It also always opens barely on screen (I have 2 monitors) no matter where it is when I close it.

megabit wrote on 7/31/2010, 12:40 PM

"If you simply want to compare results then the Sony YUV codec comes in 10 bit. The only down side is the rather large file size."

Thant's exactly the reason I wanted to try another 10 bit option, Bob - the Sony YUV 10 bit is over 1Gbps, so files are huge and there is no direct comparison with the 180-220 Mbps 8bit nanoFlash files.

The Avid free codec is 185 Mbps, so comparisons make more sense.

Piotr

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/31/2010, 2:27 PM

farss wrote on 7/31/2010, 2:43 PM

OK, then I'm confused.
If the point of the exercise is to compare using a 8bit codec to using a 10bit codec file size should not enter into the comparison. Several advantages to the Sony YUV codec is it comes in both 8bit and 10bit variants and we know that Vegas does read and write 10bit values to/from its 32bit pipeline to that specific codec. It's also a pretty much lossless codec so results will be based purely on bitdepth and not mixed in with other artifacts from compression losses.
Once you've determined that there is an advantage to using 10bits compared to 8bits THEN I'd consider the practicality of the codecs on offer, how lossy they are etc.

Bob.

megabit wrote on 8/1/2010, 2:47 AM

"Piotr - the 1080p 8 bit is 185, the 10 bit is 220"

For some reason, not for 25p or 50i - both the 8 and 10bit versions are 185 Mbps.

At least this is the option available in the drop down list of the corrupted "Configure" window....

Cliff Etzel wrote on 8/1/2010, 6:44 PM