Running out of rope with V9.

farss wrote on 2/18/2010, 8:59 PM

Until now V9.0c has been enough to get many paying jobs out the door. Yes, playback isn't stellar and yes there's that judder problem but meh, that I could live with.

Now I have a project with three tracks of HD, two being HDV and one XDCAM EX, 90 minutes long, multicam done the old school way, just to keep it simple. As I've progressed through this project V9 locks up more and more regularly. I'm now getting 60 seconds of editing done and then loosing a few minutes killing V9, clicking through the M$ "do I want to send a crash dump..." and then restarting Vegas. I am saving the project after every change. This is absurd.

It can happen playing back the project when it hits a fade. Then the preview progress indicator goes wild stuck in a loop trying to render the same frame, the playhead keeps moving, the audio keeps playing, the audio meters keep moving. Hit space to stop, the meters freeze, V9 will now not respond and the preview progress meter freezes and I get the hour glass. Opening Task manager reveals low CPU and memory usage, nothing looks remiss however I see two instances of the Vegas application but only one instance of the Vegas90.exe process running. No clue how this happens.

Once I was simply moving frame by frame over an empty section of the timeline and much the same happened. I mean what did Vegas think it had to render, truly odd.

I've tried all the fixes mentioned in the past. Preview RAM is down to 32MB, no external monitoring, Preview at Good/Quarter. All the HDV was recorded onto Sony "HD" tape and captured with V9 without a single break over 80 minutes, yes we use the very expensive 85 minute HD tapes. Thumbnails set to head, mid, tail.

I ran Memtest for a few hours this morning, not a wimper out of it. Heck even AE holds together pretty reliably on this box with 100 layers of HD but V9 is choking simply playing back 3 tracks. I have only one FX, a simple limiter on one audio track. Apart from the camera audio I have 2x 24/48K stereo tracks from a multichannel wave file and two audio busses, that's it.

I'm now uncertain which way to jump, I could soldier on, I've only got 10 minutes left to edit but that's going to take hours and the problem is getting worse as I add more cuts. Maybe I should cut my losses and break this project up into scenes. Maybe I should render DV proxies and cut that and then switch for the final render. I wish I had a clue why Vegas is doing this, would make the decision easier.

I'm going to run a few more system diagnostics. It could simply be a HDD going south but I've had that happen before and the symptoms were totally different and repeatable based on T/L position. This problem is not related to T/L position and hence where the media is coming from. Just to be sure though I'll check this out as well. I seriously doubt it's a CPU or power supply issue, rendering out is fine, just playing out or editing locks V9 up.

Bob.

Comments

PerroneFord wrote on 2/18/2010, 9:44 PM

Welcome to where I was three months ago. You know my decision, and now you know why.

BudWzr wrote on 2/18/2010, 9:54 PM

Could one of the media files be corrupted? Can you mute one at a time to see if anything changes?

Can you save as a different project, close, and open the new one? Does that change anything?

It has to be the Vegas software, the media, or Windows. You already eliminated the hardware, right? Did you chkdsk? for bad sectors or FAT?

Is it a crash error from Windows? Or Vegas? Maybe a Vegas reinstall/repair necessary?

Sometimes all we can do is "broadbrush" remedies that hopefully correct these kinds of things in the process, although no fun.

I don't even call computer tech support anymore because the first thing they ask you to do is a factory restore.

I have this same issue with Microsoft Digital Image Pro (but no other program). After too many saves it just crashes. It's like it doesn't release the memory that was previously tied up during compositing. I have to shut it down after two or three saves as a preventive measure, then it's OK.

This sounds stupid, but I'll bet if you "Save As", and add a 1,2,3....etc. so each save is in a new file, and then open and use that file it may release the memory because it's closing the project and opening a new one (or so it thinks).

If you change the number of render threads to one, does this help? Or increasing them?

Don't forget the old standby remedy of a system restart. Crude, by often effective. Maybe a database component has an issue, Vegas uses SQL Server. If you send in the error to MS, then check for updates later, they may send you a service pack.

FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/19/2010, 1:06 AM

only thing I've ever found to help is to kill the frame previews on the video tracks, or if necessary a head thumbnail only.

Dave

Christian de Godzinsky wrote on 2/19/2010, 1:44 AM

Hi,

Have you tried reverting back to 9.0 b ?

That version is worse in its playback of HD material (slow frame rates) compared top 9.0c, but it at least does not hang or go non-responsive for long periods.... I went back to 9.0b for these reasons. Or do the editing when possible in 8.0c. That version handles HD very well. Have you tried to wait patiently for a couple of minutes - before forcing the application to quit? 9.0c came "back" to life quite often just waiting (doing nothing), but that usually took a couple of minutes... During that period there was no CPU acticity to mention (caused by Vegas). You seem to have noticed the same.

I am also very frustrated and waiting for the d version to fix these isses. How long can it take to fix such a showstopper as this error is - for many of us? I'm at this very moment experimeting with a tria version of Edius 5 mainly because of the poor Vegas render quality from AVCDH to SD. The learing curve for this app is quite steep compared to Vegas. If SCS cannot fix these serious problems soon, my threshold will become much lower to make some radical tool decisions, and also as an old fart, learn some new tricks...

SO - where is the long avaited 9.0d ??? Please SCS, givel us a approx release date! Not publishing such, gives the feeling that SCS has not solved these problems and are still working on catching the bugs, not fixing them. I really miss the V6 stability and snappiness, it JUST worked. Every time!!!

What puzzels me that for example Edius has an official list of known issues, and possible workarounds. Such a thing really prevents people from repeatedly and individually tackling the same problemns, saving both time AND frustration. It is a brave thing to do (to publish what you know isn't working), a thing that a Japanese owned company (SCS) probably never can do, due to the Japanese mentality not to publicly "confess" any of your errors, even if they know about them. Have to admit, many companies have here a lot to learn...

Christian

Sebaz wrote on 2/19/2010, 3:37 AM

Don't keep your hopes up for a 9.0d version. After all, Vegas 8 ended in "c" which was released over a year ago, and it's not that great either.

I think Edius is the way to go, with Vegas as as secondary tool. If there's something that you can't do in Edius, you can export as Canopus Lossless or Canopus HQ at the highest quality, do what you need in Vegas, export to a Canopus codec and bring it back into Edius. Then Vegas can be used to process the audio if there's a need for more sophisticated audio processing since Edius has only basic audio tools.

farss wrote on 2/19/2010, 4:04 AM

Thanks for all the replies, knowing that I'm not alone in my struggle helps.

I've since run a simple test. Although the edit was not complete I rendered the project out and that went without a hitch. It took 4 hours which is fine, render time is never an issue to me, I could even live with the odd render crash although I cannot remember the last time I've had one.

From this test I can very reliably say the project file is not corrupt. The media is not corrput. If the PC can run intensive rendering for 4 hours it too must be pretty solid.

Just to set the record straight, Vegas does not use SQL Server. The optional MM does. It would be way too slow for a project file.

Anyway tomorrow I shall revert to V9.0b. I'd forgotten about that option and I've never had an issue with it. Come to think of it I can't recall exactly why I updated to V9.0c. Thanks to Christian for reminding me of that option.

I also learned that the wierd behaviour I observed with Vegas and Task Manager is not unheard off. It would seem to be a mechanism used when an application knows it is out of control. It spawns another instance of it itself and that then tries to shutdown the other instance. Not uncommon in games software which does tend to spin out of control fairly commonly. Whatever Vegas is trying to do it don't work, I've waited 30 minutes and it's no closer to going anywhere.

I have to agree with Perrone, very sadly and not just because of these problems. Try as hard as might it's impossible to ignore the offline / online collaborative workflow. It seems archaic, I used to laugh at it but as I peer deeper into it, it still has a lot going for it. Timecode is still the heartbeat of this industry and Vegas needs a heart transplant to be relevant at the pointy end of town. Again I used to think it was yesterday's news but that was nearly 10 years ago and it's still alive and kicking.

Bob.

Jay Gladwell wrote on 2/19/2010, 5:03 AM

Bob, although my recent issues do not run a deeply as yours, I am saddened to hear you're struggles with Vegas have increased. Reading posts such these leaves one with a sense of dread.

As John Meyer said elsewhere, hopefully SCS will get the message and we'll see some improvement.

Jeff9329 wrote on 2/19/2010, 7:27 AM

That is why I hit the save button frequently and immediately after any difficult to repeat actions. Then I ignore the restored veg on restart.

I used to reboot after a Vegas crash, but after getting tired of that, I learned my machine actually seems more stable after the first crash.

However, my crash problem is solely related to a memory problem with Neat Video, not basic instability.

xberk wrote on 2/19/2010, 12:26 PM

Maybe I should cut my losses and break this project up into scenes

Yep.

Yoyodyne wrote on 2/19/2010, 12:47 PM

Sorry to hear your having problems fars.

I had a project late last year and my experience was very similar. Here are the things that worked for me and got me through it.

Try and dump your unused media if possible. I had tons of footage and it seemed that Vegas was just choking whenever I would go back and forth from the media bin and timeline. Dumping a bunch of unused media seemed to help a fair bit.

Use a single codec. I was mixing various flavors of HDV, p2 media via Raylight, DV, etc just a ton of stuff. Vegas got so bogged down with crashes and issues that I started transcoding clips to Cineform - really helped.

I still had the occasional red/black timeline media but a restart always sorted it out and I could keep moving forward. I do wish that SCS would open a dialogue with their customers and I really wish these issues would get sorted out.

As a long time Vegas user It seems that the faithful are getting pretty grumbly lately.

ushere wrote on 2/19/2010, 2:32 PM

As a long time Vegas user It seems that the faithful are getting pretty grumbly lately.

i thought i was an exception to the rule. unfortunately not it would seem.

just ingested footage from my latest project (from cf card), and i have really crappy playback at 'preview-auto'. material plays fine in wmp / vlc.

am too lazy and pig-headed to revert back to 9b - it's either 9d or failing that, probably edius too - though i would like to hear from pf and sebaz as to how they're finding it.

this seems to be quite a serious hic-up in vegas's development - and as a (very) loyal user since 4 it would seem scs has lost the plot - i don't want more bells and whistles, i want reliability and stability - or is that an oxymoron in this day and age?

leslie

farss wrote on 2/19/2010, 2:33 PM

Well ther's another thing. The project media count is around 6 or 7 and that same amount of media has always been in the project and on the timeline. It's only the number of entries in the project itself that's been increasing as I edited those same pieces of media. I haven't even moved them much since the project was started. As projects go this is baby talk stuff so I was not expecting grief.

The only mixed codecs are HDV and XDCAM EX, both mpeg-2 so again there shouldn't be a big strain on the Vegas brain but I have noticed something odd. If I set the project properties to match the HDV's 1440x1080 then the HDV footage plays very smoothly even at Best/Full and the XDCAM plays very poorly. Change project properties to match the XDCAM's 1920x1080 and the XDCAM plays smooth as silk but the HDV plays really poorly.

On a very positive note and in stark contrast to many other's complaints. The 16:9 DV file that I rendered out for the test looks stunning. I don't have a serious broadcast monitor connected to this system by SDI, only a lowly old TV via composite but it still looks very impressive. The closeups from the Z7 and the EX1 really have some magic to them and we were shooting through haze and it was stage lighting. Again I cannot fault Vegas's native downscaling.
Some of the lightening flashes caused the Z7's codec to freak out for a frame or two. The EX handled it better. No one will notice, only editors look at content frame by frame :)

Bob.

winrockpost wrote on 2/19/2010, 4:33 PM

farss, ..a positive note is great ... but obviously has nothing to do with Vegas...you are extremely patient , I hope some serious editors will still be around to see if 10 is not another disaster, the longer this program screws up the more I'm gettin comfy with another edit system..hope to see you with 10 runnin smooth

Steve Mann wrote on 2/19/2010, 5:08 PM

I wish I could help, but in the years I've been running Vegas (since Version 3), I can count the number of times that WINDOWS has crashed while running Vegas on one hand, not counting the thumb. Vegas doesn't crash, Windows crashes while runnig Vegas.

Steve

PerroneFord wrote on 2/19/2010, 6:54 PM

That hasn't been my experience at all. I can happily fire up Vegas again and keep working. Windows has been rock solid for me for over 8 years. But I don't do installs like most home users. So maybe that's the difference.

cbrillow wrote on 2/19/2010, 7:07 PM

"But I don't do installs like most home users."

Would you mind explaining what you mean by this statement?

PerroneFord wrote on 2/19/2010, 7:19 PM

What I mean by that statement is that from my experience, most home users buy a PC for editing (or use a currently owned PC) install their software, and begin to edit. Many use that computer for numerous tasks like web surfing, balancing the checkbook, running MS Office, or any number of tasks.

How I install:

step 1: Repartition system hard drive
step 2: Install OS bare.
Step 3: install patches
Step 4: Install editing app
Step 5: Install helper apps (VDub, XNView, ClipBrowser, DnxHD Codec, etc.)
Step 6. Edit and don't install anything else unless absolutely required.

I was reminded the other day of how tight my install is when I needed to consult the help in an application. I attempted to open the help, but it wouldn't because I had not installed a PDF reader.

cbrillow wrote on 2/19/2010, 8:00 PM

Thanks for the explanation! My 'video' computer is similarly set-up and my Vegas experience is also rock steady. However, my work is all in SD, and my highest version is Vegas 8.0c, probably the biggest reasons for my relative success.

farss wrote on 2/19/2010, 8:16 PM

This PC is only used for editing and pretty much only runs paid for commercial software. I run CC Cleaner and Disk Detective from time to time and ImgBurn. None of these are overtly Windows programs.

I have had a response from support on this issue. Despite my doubts I decided to take their advice and do a complete uninstall of all SCS products, clean the registry and re-install V9.0c. Unfortunately the problem persists. I have made an offer to ship a HDD with all the media and project files on it to SCS for further investigation.

I am now unistalling V9.0c and reverting to V9.0b. Fingers crossed.

Bob.

jrazz wrote on 2/19/2010, 8:52 PM

Bob,

I had a similar issue but narrowed it down to a Raid issue or the fact that I had it on the same logical drive as my swap file. I undid the raid and removed the swap file from that drive and I haven't had an issue since in this regard.

j razz

farss wrote on 2/19/2010, 10:05 PM

I've uninstalled V9.0c and reverted to V9.0b. No lockups, crashes or odd behavior. Life is good again, phew.

Bob.

vicmilt wrote on 2/20/2010, 10:51 AM

Bob -
Since I totally trust your workflow and attention to detail, I'm seriously considering a reversion to 9b.
Where can I get it?

At the same time, I was also encountering "memory loss" issues on a 60 second commercial (shot on Canon 5d, transcoded with NeoScene, about 20 tracks of this and that).

I got it to work in this manner:
Rendered small parts to new track using the stock HiRes codec, w no audio.
When everythng was rendered (and this is the important part) I muted all the underlying video tracks. Now to the best of my knowledge this should be a totally unnecessary step - after all, it's only the top layer that counts - but in repeated experiments, if I left the (now useless) lower tracks ON - I got problems. If I turned them OFF - everything worked.
But I don't see what benefits the 9c has over 9b, so I'm gonna follow your lead here.
What do you think?
v

rs170a wrote on 2/20/2010, 11:48 AM

9.0b and most other older versions:
http://download.sonymediasoftware.com/current/

Mike

Christian de Godzinsky wrote on 2/20/2010, 1:34 PM

Robert,

Nice to hear that reverting back to b helped with your problem!

This is again additional proof that something is seriously wrong with c, C however fixes the AVCHD playback issue that plaques version b (I refer here to the problem that the playback stutter for a couple of seconds when playback switches from one clip to another). Now you have to live with that problem. This starts to become pathetic, we have to choose which versions to use, depending on the material on the timeline, The problem is at least to my understanding that you can oly have one major version installed. Ok, by partitioning your HD you cloud have ALL versions on line.

Unfortunately I have not had time to explore more my trial version of Edius 5. It seems very professional indeed, with all the pro codecs and timecode. Things that are lacking in this "Pro" version of software I am at this time using. And stability... mildly put.

Are we really required to perform such acrobatics as vicmilt here above suggests, to get the job done? And still without no guarantee of success?

Cheers,

Christian