I don't know Aaron, you might have it right but I think there is
something else to it. In the Mac ads it looks like it has to do with
some kind of MIDI timing support in the software? In the MOTU ads you
see the words "sample accurate sync" and then "if your software
supports it" or something like that in the fine print. The ads say
you can record from a tape deck to the hard drive in sync, edit on
the computer and then sync it back to the hard drive with "sample
accuracy" using their software? Good question anyway.

Willg

Aaron Carey wrote:
>>
>>
>>c. orlando wrote:
>>>>What is the deal with sample accurate sync? What is it? Is
>>>>this something that must be supported by both the software
>>>>and hardware? Does Vegas Pro have any support or future
>>>>plans for this?
>>>>
>>>>Orly
>>
>>Mostly "sample accurate sync" was a buzz term by marketers of the
>>ADAT format...trying to show that it did have a true pro feature
that
>>even many pro machines didnt have...
>>
>>just means that unlike smpte sync, accurate to one 30th of a
>>second...loose enough to have serious phasing problems, sample
>>accurate sync means the two machines will lock up at 1/48,000 !!!!
of
>>a second(or whatever your sample rate is)
>>
>>you wanna test sync accuracy of a program? here you go
>>
>>copy a track, to the same point in time on a different track...
>>
>>flip the phase on the new track...
>>
>>make sure volume, e-q, and whatever on the two tracks are identical
>>
>>hit "play"
>>
>>you shouldnt hear ANYTHING!
>>
>>try it in VEGAS...if it didnt work, I wouldnt even have considered
>>the program
>>

Will Gallant wrote:
>>I don't know Aaron, you might have it right but I think there is
>>something else to it. In the Mac ads it looks like it has to do
with
>>some kind of MIDI timing support in the software? In the MOTU ads
you
>>see the words "sample accurate sync" and then "if your software
>>supports it" or something like that in the fine print. The ads say
>>you can record from a tape deck to the hard drive in sync, edit on
>>the computer and then sync it back to the hard drive with "sample
>>accuracy" using their software? Good question anyway.
>>
>>Willg
>>


sorry my mind did a little wondering...

The way I record, I go to tape with TASCAM DA machines, then record
in to Vegas using MTC(30 fps) sync by using the sy-88 sync card,
converting absolute time to SMPTE/MTC. I will often put tracks back
to tape after having edited them, and they do lock up....tracks all
need to be offset forward in time by 1 frame due to the delay from
recording to playing back...no problem. I have even done the phase
check playing a track from tape and a track from the hard disk in
sync, and there is only the faintest hint of wobble tone. Here is I
think the explanation for the fact that I do get a little sound...

FACT 1
Tape recorder and computer are synced at 30 fps SMPTE, accurate to
1/30th of a second.

FACT 2
Tape recorder and computer play 48 THOUSAND!!! samples a second.

thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

If the computer and tape machine were in sample accurate sync,
(sample 10,123 on tape and sample 10,123 on computer for example
played at the same time), then I know that I would hear nothing.
ADATS, DA-88's and super high end tape machines are able to do this,
however the limits of MTC resolution doesnt let me sync this tight
between Vegas and TASCAM MDM...this is not the fault of Sonic
Foundry, this is a limitation of MTC...

However, a syncronizer in TDIF format as an interface between
computer and tape recorder could pull this off..hint hint...some one
figure this out and give it to me puhleeze!

Ok Im off topic again...

Now here's something that I wouldnt mind SF engineers to answer:
If I take a track and do my simple flip the phase test in vegas[ oh
yeah how about phase switches in Vegas please???? ] I hear nothing.
So it passes my test.

BUT and this is a big but, I SWEAR that I hear something missing in
the middle tonewise when Ive got my 32 or so tracks up. I spoke to SF
about this but they insisted listening tests by the "golden ears"
gave it the green light...
F**K that, I want a transparent program...if its gonna do ANYTHING, I
want to know about it, and have the option of bypassing it...

Now I mixed on my merry way, since the positive reaction I got from
some Vegas mixes from a very respected mastering lab, SAE Mastering
here in Phoenix AZ, yall, were all positive better than a lot of
stuff I did with my former SSL Studer SONY NEVE combo...

Later when looking for some win 2k compatiable hardware, I gave a
call to a company who Ill call SS (this does not stand for the jack-
booted republican party). I loved their hardware, but told them I
liked to mix in vegas. They said "weve tested our card with Vegas and
everything seems fine..." "but you may want to try the mixing
software that comes bundled with the card, you bought the card, so
its free may as well try it." he mentioned the software was SS v
2.something. He went on to say, " you know that jittery stuff, the
phasing and such you get with Vegas? You dont get that with this
software/harware system"

Ok...now I'd like to know, what IS the sync accuracy between vegas's
tracks? I know that there will always be some jitter with any digital
device, but how close is Vegas to the limit? Is this mostly a
computer thing? Maybe is there some hardware for a better clock
source?

If anyone bothers to read through all that and even worse, could
reply, youre a better man than I!

I apologize in advance, thank you

Hello Aaron, I too, am a Tascam DA-88 stuidio owner and can help with
the sync problem. I am using the MOTU 2408, and VegasPro to get tape
based tracks into software, edit using SoundForge 4.5 and Waves NPP
plugins, then back to tape either DA-88 tape (as a backup) or to DAT,
via the SPDIF on the MOTU2408. Since there are several different
clocks here to try to sync, MOTU (and others) make sync boxes which
work! The MOTU digital timepiece is a real winner and is extensively
used just for this reason; sync various pieces of equipment to one
clock. Tascam (via Timeline) just came out with another sync box. I
believe it too will suit your needs. Be aware though, these do run
about $800 to $1400 US dollars;although, you can buy them used for
much less (except the Timeline model which is new). Hope this answers
you question. Good Luck!MM.

michael mcgaughey wrote:
>>Hello Aaron, I too, am a Tascam DA-88 stuidio owner and can help
with
>>the sync problem. I am using the MOTU 2408, and VegasPro to get
tape
>>based tracks into software, edit using SoundForge 4.5 and Waves NPP
>>plugins, then back to tape either DA-88 tape (as a backup) or to
DAT,
>>via the SPDIF on the MOTU2408. Since there are several different
>>clocks here to try to sync, MOTU (and others) make sync boxes which
>>work! The MOTU digital timepiece is a real winner and is
extensively
>>used just for this reason; sync various pieces of equipment to one
>>clock. Tascam (via Timeline) just came out with another sync box. I
>>believe it too will suit your needs. Be aware though, these do run
>>about $800 to $1400 US dollars;although, you can buy them used for
>>much less (except the Timeline model which is new). Hope this
answers
>>you question. Good Luck!MM.
>>
>>

Im not having a sync problem really, even the sy-88 locks it pretty
good...but are you talking about a sync unit that uses the sync
cables for the DA's? If so that would kick ass!!! Im gonna go check
TASCAM's site...thank you very much...

the sync anomaly that I am talking about is for instance tracks 3&4
on the same machine recorded to two tracks in vegas at the same
time...I think there is a little movement in there somewhere between
1/30th and 1/48,000th of a sec...possibly continously varying.

I will try to clear this up...

Does Vegas support sample accurate transfer sync.
A:Vegas does not have support for sample accurate transfers to/from
exetenal MDMs (ADAT/DA-xxx). The reasons for this is that there is
no standard to do such a thing with wave device drivers. Vegas (and
ACID) sync by either generating or chasing to MTC (SMPTE). The ADAT
positional clock is much more accurate - sample accurate - vs MTC.

Some audio hardware vendors have a special mode - differs from Vendor
to vendor - that allows you to tell the audio hardware to be
triggered by incomming ADAT time code. Basically the driver allows
the application to say here is a buffer of data. The first sample in
this buffer corresponds to sample position xyz on the ADAT.

Other vendors allow you to set this up in a control pannel type app.
(Painful to use.)

Why doesn't Vegas support these special modes. They are all done
differently is the easiest answer. We hate writing special code for
different hardware as the features would become endless and no two
cards do it the same way.

>>The way I record, I go to tape with TASCAM DA machines, then record
>>in to Vegas using MTC(30 fps) sync by using the sy-88 sync card,
>>converting absolute time to SMPTE/MTC. I will often put tracks back
>>to tape after having edited them, and they do lock up....tracks all
>>need to be offset forward in time by 1 frame due to the delay from
>>recording to playing back...no problem. I have even done the phase
>>check playing a track from tape and a track from the hard disk in
>>sync, and there is only the faintest hint of wobble tone. Here is I
>>think the explanation for the fact that I do get a little sound...
>>

The little sound you are getting is due to either the slop associated
with MTC or time clock inaccuracies between the audio card and the
MDM.

In Vegas for doing the best possible transfer make sure you have all
audio hardware - card and MDM - on a common clock. When setting up
sync to incomming MTC set Vegas to trigger only vs chase. Chasing
causes vegas to calculate the source (ADAT)clock speed. This forces
us to resample on the fly. This is 1) Exepensive in CPU usage and 2)
only so accurate do to limitation of the Wave API. What you will hear
is Vegas comming up to speed as it attempts to lock clocks in
software. When you have a commone clock and Vegas set to trigger
only, Vegas will not resample. It assumes that all hardware is on a
single common clock.

>>Now here's something that I wouldnt mind SF engineers to answer:
>>If I take a track and do my simple flip the phase test in vegas[ oh
>>yeah how about phase switches in Vegas please???? ] I hear nothing.
>>So it passes my test.
>>

Good, you should hear nothing. (We know about having the "phase" flip
switch. Many requests.)

>>BUT and this is a big but, I SWEAR that I hear something missing in
>>the middle tonewise when Ive got my 32 or so tracks up. I spoke to
SF
>>about this but they insisted listening tests by the "golden ears"
>>gave it the green light...
>>F**K that, I want a transparent program...if its gonna do ANYTHING,
I
>>want to know about it, and have the option of bypassing it...
>>

"Golden Ears" Sounds like a Bond film. What I can say is there is no "special" processing between 1 track or 32 tracks other than simple mixing of streams. (Mixing is a simple add operation.) We are as transparent in the mix operations as we can be. We do nothing to the sound other than attenuate it. We are not frqequency biased in our mix in anyway. >>Later when looking for some win 2k compatiable hardware, I gave a >>call to a company who Ill call SS (this does not stand for the jack- >>booted republican party). I loved their hardware, but told them I >>liked to mix in vegas. They said "weve tested our card with Vegas and >>everything seems fine..." "but you may want to try the mixing >>software that comes bundled with the card, you bought the card, so >>its free may as well try it." he mentioned the software was SS v >>2.something. He went on to say, " you know that jittery stuff, the >>phasing and such you get with Vegas? You dont get that with this >>software/harware system" >> I have an idea of who SS is. The bundled software probably "knows" about the hardwares sample accurate transfer mode of operation and takes advantage of it. Make sure that Chase is off an Trigger is on. This will loose the jittery stuff. Phasing will/could exist, but it will be constant vs variying over time. >>Ok...now I'd like to know, what IS the sync accuracy between vegas's >>tracks? I know that there will always be some jitter with any digital >>device, but how close is Vegas to the limit? Is this mostly a >>computer thing? Maybe is there some hardware for a better clock >>source? >> If you place the exact same file - one out of phase with the other - in Vegas, they will cancle out exactly. There are external consideration. The best test. Make sure that both the in phase and out of phase track are assigned to the same bus in Vegas (which means the same hardware output.) Make sure the track gains are the same. You should get silence. (1 = -1 == 0!). It is possible that with each track assinged to a different bus and each bus assigned to a different physical output, that instead of silence, you will hear very low levels that phase in and out. This is a driver issue. Somewhere in the driver the samples being sent to each device are getting shifted. Peter