Semi OT: Tape, disc, HDD, Where are we?

kkolbo wrote on 6/20/2007, 9:56 AM

Let's discuss ... Camcorder record media/format

Base this on a consumer mentality, not a pro application. For a pro, optical and memory based recording of video make the most sense. They are random access etc. A pro will record, transfer to an edit station, prep and then print a final for viewing in whatever format they want.

Consumers (in my case the media center of a school) need camcorders that they can hand to someone to shoot for documentation or an athletic event and then hand it to someone else. VHS was good because using tape, you put in your tape, shoot it and take the tape out. The tape could be popped into any VCR in a class room or taken home to watch.

Hard drive based camcorders have to have the content 'off loaded' to a computer and then the user has to do something with it to make it viewable and transportable.

MiniDV tape is removable, but the players for the tape are almost $1000 each. They cost much more than the camera, so they have to have a camera to play it back.

With the right DVD Recorder, you can plug your HDD or miniDV camcorder in and burn a DVD to walk away with.

A DVD camcorder seems the closest to VHS is suitability for consumer use. Shoot to the disc, take it out, play it on a DVD player that is in the classroom or at home.

I am suggesting that the school media center buy DVD camcorders and then a DVD recorder to handle the existing miniDV camcorders that they have. I am suggesting that departments who will have their own (like football) buy a HDD camcorder and then a DVD recorder. (shoot the game, walk into the office and print as many DVD's as needed from the camcorder) I am still debating about athletics using a DVD camcorder and then just having a DVD duplicator.

Please folks, start shooting! A rousing discussion of pro's and con's would be appreciated. This is a transitional time with so many technologies and it is good to speak up!

Comments

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/20/2007, 10:03 AM

I think DVD camcorders are a bad idea if you intend to do any editing.

rmack350 wrote on 6/20/2007, 10:22 AM

Which creates the conundrum that Keith describes. He wan't users to be able to walk awa with the disc and play it on commonly available players.

Keith, if this is your recomendation to them then you probably also need to demonstrate editing to them to show that it's not a problem. And if it is a problem then they have to make a choice.

Are they currently using VHS?

Rob Mack

rs170a wrote on 6/20/2007, 10:36 AM

For a consumer, miniDVD and hard drive camcorders aren't that bad - until you're expected to edit the footage. For a consumer, this can be a really problem because it's qyite often Pinnacle that comes bundled with the camcorder :-(
After they're finished pulling their hair out, they come to me for help.

I work in a community college and regularly get video from all kinds of camcorders - and I'm expected to edit what I'm given.
Save me from students with more money than brains who buy the lastest toys!!
Fortunately Vegas has saved me more times than I can remember :-)
I explain to them that the final product may not look that good for a variety of technical reasons that I don't bother getting into. Try explaining I, B & P frames or various compression formats and see how fast their eyes glaze over :-)
They're generally happy with the results simply because I could edit it for them when no one else could.

The only footage I've gotten so far that I couldn't/wouldn't edit was from a digital camera that used a 2GB SD card. Apparently it used XVID for a codec and that's where I drew the line as I refuse to install it on a work machine.

Don't waste money on an expensive player for miniDV tapes. Pick up a few cheap camcorders when they go on sale at your local big box store. Hook them up to your edit machines permanently so that students aren't constantly plugging and unplugging a firewire cable as the ports are so delicate that they won't last long.

Mike

riredale wrote on 6/20/2007, 10:47 AM

MiniDV tape and the typical cheap Sony camcorder are a very robust and reliable method of presentation. My old TRV8 Sony camcorder is still going strong after literally thousands of transport operations. Some tapes have had many dozens of passes with no issues. Don't know about other camcorder brands, but it's a very competitive industry, so only the fittest survive.

newbe wrote on 6/20/2007, 10:57 AM

I am 200% sure that DVD camcorders are a bad idea if you intend to do any editing.
It's like going back in time (quality wise) many years, even to the time we used Video 8.
I feel it's a wast of money, IF YOU WANT TO EDIT!!!!!

BrianStanding wrote on 6/20/2007, 11:22 AM

What about some mini-DV cameras and a couple of standalone DVD recorders with a firewire input?

Mini-DV tapes are pretty ubiquitous nowadays, and DV camcorders are pretty cheap. You could leave one or two cams around connected to a TV set like you used to with VHS decks.

If someone wants a DVD, it's pretty painless to run a dub on DVD recorder.

kkolbo wrote on 6/20/2007, 11:45 AM

The key is that these folks DON'T want to edit. If they do, I usually have them put Vegas Movie Studio on or the like.

The problem with miniDV tapes is that you do not have a camcorder in all two hundred classrooms or at home. The other is that the teachers who check them out are confused with what tape to buy. The come in with VHS-C and 8mm with the miniDV ones. Both of these can be overcome. Tapes could be sold at the media center and many more units could be purchased for use in the classrooms. say $$$.

For teaching editing etc, we use miniDV and HDV. We just ordered five PD170's and we have six DVC7's, one XL1 and one GL2. The media center has two DVC7's at the moment.

I am think about new schools to be built in a year as well. They will have DVD players in each room. Some fancy schools will have computers and projectors in them as well. Few of them will have budgeted to put a miniDV camcorder in all rooms, but it might be a good recommendation. The media center will be budgeted to buy four or five camcorders to share. I am trying to figure out what direction to recommend.

He is a typical use for the camcorders. A softball coach wants to record the hitters at practice so that they can go straight to the locker room and review the motion. A teacher needs to record themselves teaching a complete class to send to the national board for certification.

I am beginning to think that the answer may be to have them get two miniDV and three DVD camcorders hmm. That might cause confusion.

Keep going folks, this is good.

rs170a wrote on 6/20/2007, 12:03 PM

Tapes could be sold at the media center...

Excellent idea. This way you get to specify the brand.

A softball coach wants to record the hitters...

MiniDV tape at a high shutter speed here. Image quality, especially on a freeze frame, will be better than a DVD camcorder.

A teacher needs to record themselves...

A miniDVD camcorder would be fine here.
Remember, they'll have to be taught to finalize the disc before using it in a standalone player.

Mike

farss wrote on 6/20/2007, 2:18 PM

kkolbo wrote on 6/20/2007, 3:21 PM

The solution to confusion is education. This is a school so a little effort in educating people would seem in order. All that people probably need to know should fit on a single page. Today schools educate students and parents on a huge range of topics, I don't think a few basics about using a video camera, how to choose a good one, why you need a tripod etc would be out of place.

I understand your point, but the truth is the 200 teachers on a campus not only teach all day, but attend required development classes every week. There is so much thrown at them that the last thing they process is a need to know about camcorders. Even if taught, it doesn't stick. We do presentations about how to submit an announcement for the campus. We send out emails every couple of months to remind them. I still get calls every day asking how to submit an announcement. There is just very little brain space left for what they will not use that day.

rmack350 wrote on 6/20/2007, 9:25 PM

Imagine trying to learn while standing next to a beehive. Most teachers are at their limit.

You probably need a mix of cameras You might also rent out students to help with the shooting when they want to edit.

Rob

douglas_clark wrote on 6/21/2007, 1:20 AM

Just to add another angle to the discussion: My Canon S3 IS digicam will record 640x480 30p MJPEG video to an SD card. About 15 minutes on a 2 GB card. It's ONE BUTTON video....which may be just what coach needs.

You can film batters/golfers/punters, whatever (tripod recommended), and take the camera back to the locker room, plug the camera into a TV, and easily go from clip to clip with just the camera preview controls. It even has adjustable slow-motion playback, single frame advance and reverse, and stop-frame, right in the camera. My semi-pro DV camera won't do that!

If you want to save something, just have an SD card reader and copy to harddisk just like digital pix. Otherwise delete all, and go back out in the field. Or just have a couple SD cards.

And the camera takes decent 6 Megapixel stills, too! ;-)

About 15 minutes of video is all that is needed for many student projects, and MJPEG is very editable.... ;-) Remember, it's not Hollywood. An edited student video is likely to end up 320x240 on YouTube, anyway.

Gosh, some student video projects are recorded on cell phones!!!! They love it. (but they don't get A+ for it ;-)