Serious bug in V9.0c

farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 12:33 AM
Excuse the not very informative title but I cannot think of a word to describe what I just saw.

I was trying to build a test case regarding Serena's thread regarding a 16mm film transfer and hit a major snag, Here's what I did and what I saw.

Bog standard NTSC DV 50i project, T/L ruler NTSC NDF.
Added black gen media and trimmed to 24 frame. Added one frame of gen media white. Copied and pasted this until I had a couple of minutes of this sequence.
At around 1:26:00 things get VERY funky. My one frame of white becomes a frame of horizontal lines. This effect seems to drift as I move down the T/L, the frame that should be white is OK, the next frame is this messed up frame of lines of black and white. Further along the T/L the white frame is wrong and the next frame is correct.


I have repeated the same test in V8.0 and cannot fault V8.
This would seem to indicate that V9 has an error with which frame is which, it appears to be interpolating the fields when it doesn't need to or some such. If anyone can repeat this to confirm my results much appreciated.

Bob.

Comments

farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 1:50 AM
Just an update.
I tried the same thing in V9.0c at 25fps and seemed not to get the same problem. Thinking it might have something to do with rounding off errors in the non integer frame rate I tried 24.000fps (film) and did get the problem.

On reflection what I'm seeing might explain the strange problem other have reported with still images and V9.0c. Some work OK and some identical one don't. It might simply be their position on the Timeline.

Bob.
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 2:21 AM
Final update :)

I've submitted this as all SCS need is the project file to repo.
Zooming right into the T/L at the point where the error becomes quite obvious the playhead is not exactly aligned to the frame boundary.

Bob.
Marco. wrote on 11/15/2009, 3:43 AM
It affects the preview not the render, right?

Marco
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:35 AM
Eh? I'm lost . .

wotz: "Bog standard NTSC DV 50i project, "

Grazie
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:39 AM
Rendered output is also mangled.
What worries me about this is if I had used actual footage I might not have noticed this. I don't have any NTSC footage on hand to try at the moment.

I can email anyone a veg file although it's drop dead easy to rebuild what I've described. If you want a project file drop me an email.

Bob.
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:41 AM
"Bog standard NTSC DV 50i project"

NTSC DV 4:3 from the list of standard presets.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:48 AM
I don't see a NTSC DV 50i project as a Preset? You do? This is in the Project Properties? Yeah?

Grazie
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:57 AM
I've got my Project Settings at

NTSC Standard 720x486, 29.97 fps

I've set the ruler to SMPTE Non-Drop 29.97 fps

I am not getting a problem with the White Frames? At 1:25:22 or even at 2:28:29 - the Play Head is bang on frame boundary.

I must be doing something wrong . .

Grazie
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:58 AM
Ooops, my Vegas machine is some distance away.

The exact wording is "NTSC DV (720x480 29.970fps)"

I just checked some more and it gets worse.
I added a marker where the first mangled frame appeared to make it easier for SCS to find what I was talking about. Following on from Marco's question I'd rendered the project out.
I took the rendered AVI back into the original project and found that the mangling is indeed in the rendered output but not in the same place. The marker in the rendered file is 0:00:07;22 prior to the one in the project and the rendered file is one frame longer than the original project.

Bob.
Chienworks wrote on 11/15/2009, 4:58 AM
PAL DV (720x576, 25.000 fps)

50i means 50 interlaced fields, which is the same as 25fps with interlacing.
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 5:00 AM
Yes, Kelso, that's why I was being persistent - see Bob's correction?

. . and moving on . .

Grazie
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 5:04 AM
OK . .So project is SET to 29.97, Ruler set to 29.97 - I had/have this.

I have repeated your BnW 24B and 1W set-up and I am not getting a problem with the whites frames at all.

Grazie
rs170a wrote on 11/15/2009, 5:07 AM
Bob, I tried your Generated Media test as well as NTSC footage set to PAL mode and can't repro your problem in Pro 8.0c or 9.0c.

Mike
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 5:08 AM
"I must be doing something wrong . . "

Possibly not. I've emailed you my project file, standby as it's just over 500Kb. Sent to your gmail addy.

It's possible something is wrong in my V9 install, not that I have any reason to suspect there is as all else is working OK. But if it is and there's someway to get an install messed up creating this I think that's worth further investigation.

Bob.
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 5:13 AM
OK, just went and had another look.
The problem goes away IF I change preview to Preview/Auto. At Best/Full it is back.

In my render test I rendered at Best also.

Bob.
rs170a wrote on 11/15/2009, 5:34 AM
Sorry Bob but I still can't repro the problem.
I tried it at NTSC frame rate, PAL frame rate and film frame rate and everything is clean.

Mike
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 6:08 AM
Opened in London, and nope. No mangled frames here.

I've sent you back a screen grab of the Mangled "Marker" frame on the timeline. As you can see it is quite clean.

Sorry . ..

What I did notice is that you have reduced the 10sec default to what you want. And YES that is correct. But what I did was physical alter the numbers in the GenMed length.

Grazie
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 6:34 AM
Thanks guys,
I've sent Grazie a screenshot of how it looks in my Vegas project.
Have to leave this until tomorrow. Not a problem affecting me so not a big issue for me, only found it when trying to look at someone else's problem. I have since tried a restart but problem still there.

Bob
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 6:49 AM
Ah-hah!

IF you get the Scopes up you WILL see the lines forming. BUT if you then stretch a White OVER A Black - make a X-Fade, and then BACK again, this clears the Preview to WHITE or if over a BLACK, Black.

However the Playhead is correctly positioned at the Event-Horizon!

Grazie
farss wrote on 11/15/2009, 12:33 PM
Thanks so much, I was beginning to think either I had lost my marbles or I had a ghost in the machine.
It would have never occured to me that the 'scopes would be a player in this.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/15/2009, 2:29 PM
"It would have never occured to me that the 'scopes would be a player in this."

It was your mention of seeing the results within the Scopes that made me launch my SCOPES Layout for Fx-ing that did it.

I now wondering whether it is scopes OR the FX-s Pane?

Sleep now . . . .

Grazie
Grazie wrote on 11/16/2009, 1:55 AM
OK . .

The Black and White frames are setup as a Group. Remove White from Group will eradicate the Mangle.

Now, if you look carefully at the Frame Boundary, and do the UNDO and REDO for Group and UnGroup, you will see the Cursor do an obscure shimmy back and forth. Well, I'd propose that it is the SINGLE frame that is doing some kind of "fuzzy" reach for its Black Media next to it.

I can see this happening time after time.

UnGroup and Group shows this motion and Boundary shimmy. Should, this happen? I'll leave this to the mathematicians about.

Grazie

farss wrote on 11/16/2009, 4:50 AM
"Should, this happen? I'll leave this to the mathematicians about."

No, it should not happen. The frame is the atom of the video world and we all know that splitting atoms leads to bad things happening.

Bob.