Setting In and Out Points (Easy right?)

erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 6:01 AM
Well, for me the most basic aspect of editing is setting and in and an out point. The Vegas manual states that the shortcut for an in-point is quite logically the key I and O for the out-point. All seems good except whenever I used these commands nothing really happens.

I hit the key I for my in-point and I think I have entered an in-point and then I play or move the cursor to the desired out point and hit O. But wait, my in-point is now gone and I don't have any out-point either.

For over a year my workaround has been to click/drag my in-out points but often this feels very tedious to me. Most of the time the in-out point selection is to precise for the clunky drag approach. I would much rather prefer to mark my in and outs while playing back the timeline but I can't seem to figure out how to do this and the manual is not helpful either.

Erik



Comments

rs170a wrote on 5/17/2009, 6:17 AM
I've found that using the I & O keys works best in DVD Architect, not in Vegas.
If I want to add multiple in/out points, what I do is to add markers (shortcut key is M) while I'm playing a timeline.
That way, I can go back and double-click between 2 markers to highlight that specific area.

If you just want to highlight a specific section without markers, make sure the Collapse loop region when no time selection is present option is selected in Options - Prefs - Editing.
This way, when you select in & out points, a loop region is highlighted above the timeline.
You can now double-click the loop area above the timeline to highlight it.
When you add a new in point though, the previous loop region disappears.
This is why the marker option makes sense to me.

Mike
erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 6:35 AM
"make sure the Collapse loop region when no time selection is present option is selected in Options - Prefs - Editing."

Mike, for me when I uncheck this option is when the in and out points work as expected. I'm going to leave it like this for awhile and see if I can work better like this.

As a quick aside, does everyone know that by using the backspace button you can see up to 5 of your last time selections on the timeline? I just learned about this feature and find it quite handy.

Erik
erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 7:01 AM
"You can now double-click the loop area above the timeline to highlight it."

UGGGG. Ridiculous. Why oh why oh why would I need to double-click to activate the in and out points that I just set!!!! What possible harm could be done by making them automatically active without double-clicking? I'm sorry but Vegas is screwball when it comes to marking in and out points. I really can't see how anyone can argue that it is faster to edit with click/drag edit point marking.

Erik
Barefoot Joe wrote on 5/17/2009, 7:06 AM
Try going to options/customize keyboard and setting the I & O keys manually, although this should be the default. In the space where it says "show commands containing", type in "mark". Scroll to the bottom of the results and you will see "markin" and "markout". Set them to I and O respectively. You may have to play with this a little to set them, but it is not difficult. Or, if you prefer, set any other keys to I and O that might be easier for you to use. Make sure the "TrackView" is selected. Let us know if that works. I'm trying to teach myself how to use I and O points right now. I have a fancy keyboard with a jog/shuttle and two arrow keys just above it. It seems logical to make the small arrow shaped keys the I and O. Good luck!
Rosebud wrote on 5/17/2009, 8:04 AM
The precision of In/Out point depends of timeline zoom factor.
However, in my point of view, we should make a time selection only when drag an drop cursor on TOP of Time Line.
Outside of this area, we should drap and drop playhead, make Event selection, Trim Event… because it's too easy to loose time selection.
erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 8:55 AM
"Scroll to the bottom of the results and you will see "markin" and "markout". Set them to I and O respectively. You may have to play with this a little to set them, but it is not difficult. Or, if you prefer, set any other keys to I and O that might be easier for you to use. Make sure the "TrackView" is selected."

Joe your idea is quite intuitive and it is one that I tried long ago when I was trying to solve this conundrum. I already do have markin and markout set for I and O on the track view but those settings will not trump the "collapse loop region when no time selection is present" setting. If the "collapse" checkbox is selected in the preferences then my in and out points have zero effect on the timeline. If I uncheck "collapse" then the in and out points will be there but now the keystroke Q shortcut will no longer turn off the selection on the timeline! A real pain in the tookas!

BTW, even the wording "collapse loop region when no time selection is present" in itself doesn't make sense to me. A loop region is a time selection right? So how could you collapse a loop region when there is no time selection present.

Erik

erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 9:02 AM
"The precision of In/Out point depends of timeline zoom factor."

Agreed, but it slows me down to be so far zoomed in on the timeline. I can work much faster just poppin in and out points on the fly. Also, if I am zoomed out a bit more on the timeline I quickly move and swap things around more quickly.

"However, in my point of view, we should make a time selection only when drag an drop cursor on TOP of Time Line."

Agree fully if we have the option to turn it off in preferences if we want. The reason for me is that dragging the playhead is a bit cumbersome even if you use the Ctrl>drag option. The click and drag above the timeline is smoother. I would prefer to click drag scan the timeline to get close to my desired in point. Hit play, mark in on the fly and repeat for out. The in and out points should stay there too unless I clear them in my opinion.

Erik
Rosebud wrote on 5/17/2009, 9:27 AM
"The reason for me is that dragging the playhead is a bit cumbersome even if you use the Ctrl>drag option. The click and drag above the timeline is smoother."

Press Ctrl+Alt when draging the playhead = Scrub without audio and you get a smooth drag.
erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 10:06 AM

"Press Ctrl+Alt when draging the playhead = Scrub without audio and you get a smooth drag. "

Thanks, forgotten that one. I also figured out that I can collapse the selection using Ctl>shift>L. My Q key had been programmed for another command. Because I don't like Ctl>shift>l, I then changed it to the + key on the numeric keypad.

Erik
farss wrote on 5/17/2009, 12:47 PM
If you want to trim a clip by setting in/out points the logical place to do it is in the Trimmer not on the timeline.

Bob.
erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 1:05 PM
"the logical place to do it is in the Trimmer not on the timeline."

If I am bringing a new source clip to the timeline then yes I begin by trimming it in the trimmer. This is the logical step done by all NLE's. But by far most of the real world editing takes place on the timeline because of the many, many tweaks and adjustments that are necessary for a fine master. The extra step of moving a clip from the timeline to the trimmer to trim and then back to the timeline is unnecessary and extremely clumsy IMO.

Erik
farss wrote on 5/17/2009, 1:31 PM
Understood.
Once the clip is on the timeline though I forget about using in/out points. Slip, rolling etc edits are the things to use to fine tune your edits. If you've got a Shuttle it's a LOT easier. To be honest even if Vegas had real sticky in/out points on the T/L your way of working with them seems incredibly difficult and counter intuitive to me.

Bob.
erikd wrote on 5/17/2009, 9:37 PM
"the logical place to do it is in the Trimmer not on the timeline."

Sorry, but this is not an effective way to edit when audio is important. So much of my editing involves trimming soundbites into very small pieces and then putting them together in some workable order. You know, making it sound like the person knew what they were talking about.

You cannot work this way effectively using click/drag time selections. It is much easier to mark your edit points on the fly and use cut and paste to reorder and reassemble. Alt>drag, Ctl>atl>drag, Ctl>drag are great options for editing video but are not efficient in audio. I have a Shuttle pro too which is great for cueing up to portion of the audio and I do this also.

While I'm sort of on the subject, Vegas should also have time code view information for audio! Say you are editing a music track multiple times to extend it over a period of time but you have to slice and dice it many different ways to keep extending it. Time code is a great way to know where you are exactly at any given point within that song. True I can take the time to use markers to mark my potential edit points in the song but timecode is there so that you have a built in marking system for editing. Also markers only move with the clips on the timeline if you are in ripple mode but if you want to do simple cut and paste without ripple your markers on the timeline don't stay put. Now someone is probably going to tell me a way how I can embed the marker information or by going back to the trimmer the markers will be there but this is all a bunch of unnecessary steps IMO. Time code reference is all I really need. I've always been amazed that Vegas seems to assume you don't need time code view information for the audio.

Erik
farss wrote on 5/18/2009, 12:12 AM
"I've always been amazed that Vegas seems to assume you don't need time code view information for the audio."

With that I could not agree more. For what started out as an audio application and still is at heart that then has had video bolted onto it this is a significant ongoing oversight.


As for your problems editing small soundbites I now understand what you're trying to do. I somehow think though you'd do better using a DAW such as Sound Forge rather than a multitracker like Vegas.

Bob.