The Blu-Ray camp likes to play games.

There were freebee titles offered as a promo for the Playstation 3

The Blu-Ray camp counted those as Blu-Ray sales in their sales figures.

Right after Christmas there were buy one get one free sales for Blu-Ray titles.

The Blu-Ray camp counted BOTH as separate sales in bragging about their sales figures.

They just had another buy one get one free this past month. Same thing.

Kind of dishonest.

I own an HD DVD player and I have seen the Blu-Ray discs. Both look equally good. The biggest factor is the movie itself, not the format.

John

Of course, since CNN is "The most trusted name in news" they could have pointed that out.

Two points to differ:
1. Format of BD is significantly more robust, offering more media-rich experience to the end user. Not to mention that it's nearly 6 times the capacity at double the speed. Sony didn't claim/count both, the BD consortium did, of which Sony is only one member. It's a common marketing practice, I'd be surprised to find any business that doesn't count sales based on inventory distribution rather than $$. Toshiba had the same 2 for 1 promotional thru retailers, was that any more or less dishonest? They moved XXX units. Toshiba counted their sales exactly the same way, according to Peddie and Cnet.

2. Toshiba brought this on themselves. Study the history of HiDef on disc. Sony and Toshiba (and everyone else) were in the same camp. Studios will go with the most profitable format. Why do you think virtually no one went the Toshiba route? Because Toshiba got greedy. All the members of the BDA were part of the development consortium that Toshiba built in the early days. Toshiba actually chaired the DVD Forum, of which Sony was a part. Toshiba had everyone on board with their SDD/Super Density Disc, but they wanted huge royalties out of it. So, Sony and Philips continued to develop a format they had in the works *long* before IBM, Toshiba, or Panasonic had the SDD and what became the Advanced Optical Disc. The ProDATA disc that Sony/Philips developed way back in 1995 became Blu-ray, and was implemented and part of the professional environment well before Toshiba had even thought of HD DVD as a consumer format.

Sony isn't playing games, it's called "Marketing." You know, like how McDonalds gives away toys with Happy Meals, or how if you buy shoes from Foot Locker during a certain week, you buy one pair, get half off on the other and get a free Tshirt.
Sony rightfully can claim they've delivered more than 2M BD players in the form of PlayStation, while Toshiba can't even offer a desktop player, and they don't have all their licenses in order. Plus, Toshiba has already announced that their first generation players are outdated and won't accept the HD DVDs that start shipping in August. I happen to have one of the first HD DVD players, so should I claim I was duped in buying the first one off the truck, when Toshiba knew they were shipping a new player in a few months? I am less than thrilled to know that I now own another boat anchor. Aren't you tweaked to know your current HD DVD player won't play movies released in the next few months?

Why is it acceptable to come to Sony's house and piss on them?

It's no secret I'm a fan of BD, but let's be honest when we're coming into Sony's house and pissing on them for how they operate their business. If you took out the word "Sony" and put the word "Apple" in the exact same sentence, you'd be forever banned from the Apple fora and have your post deleted.

BTW, I don't happen to agree with Sir Howard. The only position in this war is that of being a loser for the time being.

Quote:
Toshiba has already announced that their first generation players are outdated and won't accept the HD DVDs that start shipping in August.
End quote.

Spot,

Do you have, by chance, link to that Toshiba announcement?

Toshiba had the same 2 for 1 promotional thru retailers, was that any more or less dishonest?
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Not according to everyone on the HD DVD Software AV Science Forum. They didn't count their sales like the Blu-Ray camp.
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Toshiba brought this on themselves. Study the history of HiDef on disc. Sony and Toshiba (and everyone else) were in the same camp. Studios will go with the most profitable format. Why do you think virtually no one went the Toshiba route? Because Toshiba got greedy
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Toshiba had the jump on Blu-Ray because the Blu-Ray camp was counting on PS3 sales to put it over the top. Sony had too many problems with those units and released them late. The first home theater Blu-Ray player (Samsung) was way overpriced. Toshiba got the jump on them with a reasonaby priced player. Problem was, stores like Best Buy were playing games at first (for some reason) telling customers falsehoods like Blu-Ray is superior to the HD DVD format because the discs are 1080p just like the Blu-Ray players and HD DVD is "only" 1080i. Absolute spin. There is NO visible difference. Moreover, many on that forum were reporting that Best Buy was hiding the players AND the titles or spreading them all over the store in places no one could find them. It saw that first hand in my local Best Buy. Fortunately that has changed.
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Format of BD is significantly more robust, offering more media-rich experience to the end user.
==========

Seriously Doug. That just isn't true. That's part of the dialog from the Blu-Ray camp. There is NO visible difference between the two formats. Given a good transfer and a good film both are equal. Some members of that forum have both players and attest to that.
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Toshiba has already announced that their first generation players are outdated and won't accept the HD DVDs that start shipping in August. I happen to have one of the first HD DVD players, so should I claim I was duped in buying the first one off the truck, when Toshiba knew they were shipping a new player in a few months? I am less than thrilled to know that I now own another boat anchor. Aren't you tweaked to know your current HD DVD player won't play movies released in the next few months?
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I have an HD-A1 and my son has the HD-XA1. A few titles REQUIRE firmware 2.0 in order to play. Some of those titles are King Kong, Miami Vice, and a few others. More titles requiring firmware 2.0 are scheduled for release. That's all.
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Why is it acceptable to come to Sony's house and piss on them?
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That's a bit harsh. It's a big company with lots of diversified businesses that don't have that much to do with one another. YOU pointed that out to someone on these forums once.
I believe it was in that thread about the "rootkits". You didn't tell them they were pissing on Sony. Give me a break. But you are right in that the Blu-Ray camp is MORE than just Sony so I corrected my post.
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It's no secret I'm a fan of BD
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So why did you buy an HD DVD player?


John

"Toshiba has already announced that their first generation players are outdated and won't accept the HD DVDs that start shipping in August.
End quote"

I have NO idea how true (or false) this is... but I will say that there does seem to be a difference between the A1 and the A2. The Hybrid HD DVD (which I do a lot of) works great in the A1 but people seem to be having audio problems when played in the A2.

Personally speaking, I don't give a rat's behind who wins the war, but it appears that BOTH camps are not living up to expectations when it comes to burning disks. There is this problem with Toshiba, there are read problems with Blu ray.... I am not happy, or impressed by this!

I'm not in this for the Hollywood movie watching.... my standard DVD palyer works fine for this... it's BURNING that I care about... and they are BOTH failiing!

Toshiba is SUPPOSED to be coming out with their burners in March or April... let's see if it actually works.

John,
From what I can tell, Toshiba and Sony both count their sales the same. Here's a quote: "Since the inception of both formats, the Sony-backed Blu-ray disc has now sold more units than its Toshiba-backed HD DVD competitor, according to Nielsen VideoScan First Alert data. That's from Home Media Retailing magazine, the industry trade paper. There were just as many discount programs on HD DVD as there were on BluRay this past year-- after all, there were sales on EVERYTHING. It's called "Christmas."

And when Doug says "BD is significantly more robust, offering more media-rich experience" he isn't talking about the visual quality. He's quite aware of the image specs, as we all are. He's talking about the other aspects of what you can do with the discs. I'm not saying he's right, because I don't know anything about that stuff yet, I'm just pointing out that he didn't mean what you thought he did.

As for Best Buy hiding the HD DVD players, are you sure they weren't putting them all around the store in hopes that people who didn't come into the DVD player section would see them? Are you sure there was evil intent? Where's your evidence? For what it's worth though, I had no trouble finding HD DVD discs or players at Best Buy. And the prices were virtually identical for the discs.

Personally, I'm glad that BluRay is winning. It's a much cooler name.

Fred

I bought an HD DVD player because it's vital to our business to be on top of whatever formats are doing what. I also bought a BD player. And have a couple of the same movies for switchable comparisons, because we wanted to test the converter outputs. The files are the same, but the converters aren't.

Backwards compatibility:
London report

TechSpot Report

DailySpec (anti-Sony site)

Toshiba didn't say in their press release that the old disc players won't play the new discs. In fact, when the question was asked by one reporter (I was in the room at CES), the CTO commented, "We don't even know if it will make it to the DVD spec yet." Nice dodge there...But later that day, the people in their booth told us all that the currently shipping players will not play the new 3 layer discs, and that the "intent was to quickly phase out" the old discs.

"More robust-media rich" ,i.doesn't have thing one to do with picture quality.. It has everything to do with embedded websites, additional streams, embedded games, alternative movie formats, and functions that Sony has yet to announce but were showing in backrooms at CES. With the greater capacity that is shipping now, today, not in 6 or 12 months, they can offer a great deal more. You'll hear new BD announcements as the year comes on.
BD supports/mandates Java as part of the authoring side, giving users many more options. HD DVD not only doesn't mandate it, they prefer it not be there. Pundits say it's due to Microsoft's lawsuits and troubles with Sun, but either way, the feature isn't really there nor supported. All those factors add up to a more "media rich/robust presentation" IMO. Oops, edited to add that Toshiba failed to license 1080p over HDMI. They're correcting that, but 1080p vs 1080i is also a more robust, media-rich experience, IMO.

Craftech, your information about HD DVD is coming from the HD DVD forums. I read them too. I also read the BD forums. They're both full of brand fanatics. While I believe BD to be the superior format for a lot of reasons, I also try to be agnostic when it comes to reading that stuff, because most of it is meaningless. Kinda like the "Vegas is great" threads here. Serves *this* community well, but doesn't inspire anyone at the Apple, Avid, Adobe, or Canopus communities. (we all know I prefer Vegas over anything else, but...) Try posting anti-HD DVD content in the HD DVD forum, and get flamed. Same with the BD forum.
Rather than trust the HD DVD forum, subscribe or run to your local newstand and pick up a copy of BillBoard, where accurate (OK, semi accurate) sales numbers are reported, promotions are listed, and a generally high view of what's happening in the industry.

That's just on the consumer side, which of course matters a lot. Now we talk about the BD side. More support there, too. What about studios? Much more support for BD. What about expandable content and DRM? BD wins that one. HD DVD held the lower cost of replication for all of about 3 months, that's over too.
Doesn't matter *why* Toshiba sold 2 for 1, I don't know the reason why and neither do you. But the fact remains that they did exactly what BD did, I don't know nor care who did it first. It's a "war" and in a "war" each side will do what they think will allow their team to win. Toshiba fired the first shot back in 1998, now they're playing catch up. Truth is, if Sir Howard hadn't tweaked Bill Gates, there would be no HD DVD. It was already on it's deathbed before Microsoft breathed breath into it again.

If I bought an HD player and less than a year later it's announced that it's incompatible with any new media, I'd be asking the manufacturer for a refund under implied warranty theories. And I'd get my money back, too.

Bob.

Toshiba and Sony both count their sales the same. Here's a quote: "Since the inception of both formats, the Sony-backed Blu-ray disc has now sold more units than its Toshiba-backed HD DVD competitor, according to Nielsen VideoScan First Alert data. That's from Home Media Retailing magazine, the industry trade paper
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I read that too. Maybe they FINALLY have, but the Hoopla has been coming from the Blu-Ray camp and it's quite annoying. I haven't seen all the horn tooting from the HD DVD camp.
Look at this excerpt from a booklet that was included with the CES Daily News publication and made available to all attendees at the 2007 CES on the first day of the show. It was full of propaganda articles with distorted information and statistics (much of it based on "projected" sales and the assumption that PS3 owners all buy Blu-ray movies). Obnoxious.

The whole thing is really ridiculous.
=================
As for Best Buy hiding the HD DVD players, are you sure they weren't putting them all around the store in hopes that people who didn't come into the DVD player section would see them? Are you sure there was evil intent? Where's your evidence? For what it's worth though, I had no trouble finding HD DVD discs or players at Best Buy. And the prices were virtually identical for the discs.

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As I said, they aren't doing it any more. On the AVS forums there were far too many stories about Best Buy and those practices for it to be accidental. One person (last summer) went looking for the titles at a Best Buy in California and was told they didn't carry them. He said he found the display turned around facing the wall behind a bunch of television boxes. In my case (you know the ones spread out all over the store in odd locations) I FOUND THEM after two sales reps told me they didn't know where they were and they didn't think the store carried them. The Blu-Ray display was right where everyone could find it and the HD DVD titles weren't anywhere near them. Many have reported on those forums being told (when asking about the Toshiba player) that they shouldn't buy one because of the nonsense about 1080p vs 1080i. Why would the same misinformation come from CSRs from Best Buy stores in places all over the country when the average CSR in those stores doesn't seem to really know much about anything? If the exact same misinformation was coming from so many of those kids in so many different Best Buy stores it seems reasonable that someone taught it to them.
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Personally, I'm glad that BluRay is winning. It's a much cooler name.
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Personally I could care less. The hoopla is annoying, but I bought my HD DVD player because of it's superior ability to upconvert SD DVD. It is second to none to date. I bought it to use with my projector to show my DVD videos publically. The HD DVD aspects were just a bonus and I ended up getting hooked on Home Theater as a result. If HD DVD goes by the wayside so be it.

John

"And when Doug says "BD is significantly more robust, offering more media-rich experience" he isn't talking about the visual quality. He's quite aware of the image specs, as we all are. He's talking about the other aspects of what you can do with the discs. I'm not saying he's right, because I don't know anything about that stuff yet, I'm just pointing out that he didn't mean what you thought he did."


Sorry... I don't buy this either. If you go to the AVSforums, which is filled with total hi def movie junkies to the "N"th degree, of those that have both players, most are reporting equality.
=============================================================
"As for Best Buy hiding the HD DVD players, are you sure they weren't putting them all around the store in hopes that people who didn't come into the DVD player section would see them? Are you sure there was evil intent? Where's your evidence? For what it's worth though, I had no trouble finding HD DVD discs or players at Best Buy. And the prices were virtually identical for the discs."


I've seen this too... but I don't think there was any evil intent. HD DVD came on display first and there were only a few movies out at the time, so they stocked the movies where the display was. The display soon ran out of room so they started displaying the movies in different places around the store. Then Blu ray hit the display... Anyway to make a long story short, the situation has now been corrected (at my store anyway) and both players have an EQUAL display setup, and the movies are now located in the DVD section... one shelf for BD and one for HD DVD.
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"Personally, I'm glad that BluRay is winning. It's a much cooler name."

I don't think either one of them is winning... I think they are BOTH losing. Joe public is just not interested in this. Relitively speaking, these machines are not selling well AT ALL.

the winner will be.. which one has shelf space at blockbuster, so far in my area no one.

Backwards compatibility:
London report

TechSpot Report

DailySpec (anti-Sony site)

=======
I think we are talking about two different things here. Aren't those articles talking about recordable media and NOT movie titles? The sales hype is about movie title sales.
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"More robust-media rich" ,i.doesn't have thing one to do with picture quality.. It has everything to do with embedded websites, additional streams, embedded games, alternative movie formats, and functions that Sony has yet to announce but ........
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OK
========
pick up a copy of BillBoard
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will do
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Toshiba failed to license 1080p over HDMI. They're correcting that, but 1080p vs 1080i is also a more robust, media-rich experience, IMO.
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As long as you aren't talking about picture quality which it doesn't seem that you are.

John

"the winner will be.. which one has shelf space at blockbuster, so far in my area no one."

LOL
That's the way I see it.... They're BOTH total failures to this point... There is no such thing as a 1st place loser as opposed to a 2nd place loser.

>>>>Sorry... I don't buy this either. If you go to the AVSforums, which is filled with total hi def movie junkies to the "N"th degree, of those that have both players, most are reporting equality.<<<

Equality in movie image quality ONLY.. Maybe that is their problem, being HD Movie junkies, so they can't see any use for extra capacity beyond that.

They can't be equal if one can store 5 times more data ( not just movies ) and is faster.

I think I'll just stick with my 50 year old Very High Definition Home Cinema. No DRM hassles, scratch the media and it still plays. No compression and >2K res, what's not to like?
OK, having change reels half way through a movie is bit of a PIA unless you've got two projectors but even cinemas used to have an intermission.

Bob.

Sir Howard (that's my middle name) spoke not only about total volumes but quality considerations. He said that out of the top 20 box-office hits released on HD, 15 were on blu-ray and only three on HD DVD. He didn't say what the other two were on?

The thing that drove DVD sales was "home cinema". Here I include all forms, not just the homes with projectors, large screens and Wurlitzers rising from the hearth; people like watching a movie at home with good image and excellent sound.
The HD formats offer "cinema" quality images for the bigger TVs that are walking out of stores. So if a disk will hold one movie at an attractive price I suspect that will be the major driver for sales, whatever format.
Games? Big with youngsters, but a major sales driver for homes? Store greater amount of data: sales to people like us and perhaps to home picture archives. Provided there is stability, ease of use and attractive price, I doubt that any "hidden betters" will win if a format doesn't compete on that home consumer need, unless it excludes others from the movie market. Do people want 5 movies on one disk? I don't. Four will be movies are I don't particularly want (as in the "suggestions for you" that I get from Amazon).

Yes, I'm interested in Blu-Ray but still waiting for the dust (as in this thread) to settle.

"Equality in movie image quality ONLY.. Maybe that is their problem, being HD Movie junkies, so they can't see any use for extra capacity beyond that.
They can't be equal if one can store 5 times more data ( not just movies ) and is faster."


Well, I don't think any one disputes the fact that Blu ray has got a place to go if it fails in the hollywood movie department... which is of course the data department... but that's not exactly what we're talking about here. The additional room that BD offers, for the most part, is a moot issue in the Hollywood movie arena


And even in the data department, I don't think it will fair too great... Do you have any idea how long it will take to write a 50gig disk at something like 2x!!?? Not withstanding... I don't know about you, but when you start talking 50, 75, or 100gig of info... I sure WOULD NOT be trusting an optical disk... regardless of the manufacturer. Me... I would simply go buy another HDD... not perfect, but they sure are more dependable than optical disks.... and a HECK of a lot faster.

"Yes, I'm interested in Blu-Ray but still waiting for the dust (as in this thread) to settle."

LOL... You'll be waiting for a while!! :)

Serena: If you want to talk about what people really want it's fast/cheap downloads on demand. I suspect DVD disks of any sort will not be mainstream in five-seven years time. See what I was saying about Wal-Marts on-going negotiations with the studios to move Its (Wal-Mart's) 40% distribution block to download.

Michael
PS
The correct way to say Howard in upper-crust English is pronounced "hard" with a long "a" sound.

Here's an unofficial theory: Look to the Porn. Yes, Porn. VHS marketed their format to the adult movie publishers and the format war was over. Ever see Debbie Does Dallas on Beta? No. Now look to today's format war...who's courting the adult market? You guessed it.... game over man.


Sound believable? I'm working on the screenplay.

Interesting you should mention this.
I was just thinking about the Rev Pro disk, 35GB , fast, cheap and resuable thousands of times. So you take your disk(s) to Block Buster or whoever and swap them for ones with the movies you want on them. Block Buster has almost zero inventory costs, even if they don't have the movie you want on disk they can copy it pretty quick for you.
Big plus, no billions of tons of plastic that'll end up as landfill one day. Next big plus, you could copy the disk but most people wouldn't bother.

Bob.