Hi

Yes i understand "nothing will smart render fades or effects, because they are not existing video, but a set of instructions."

But I am hoping that I can find a setting that will smart render the parts that are unchanged

If you want to be sure that you can smart-render then use Vegas to do the conversion from your media format to mpeg2.
Another "media converter" might generate some non-compatible output.

I had a go at using vegas to do as you suggested

I got a .m2t file tahe vegas will not load though it was made in vegas

here is the file info on the file that i made in media converter it does open and vegas will edit it but will not smart render it

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name \00151~000.MPG
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 534 MiB
Duration : 3mn 41s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 20.2 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 5 000 Kbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=16
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 3mn 34s
Bit rate : 19.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 20.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.366
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 486 MiB (91%)
Writing library : ArcSoft MPEG-2 NTSC
Color primaries : BT.470 System M
Transfer characteristics : BT.470 System M
Matrix coefficients : BT.601

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Codec ID : 3
Duration : 3mn 34s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : 24ms
Stream size : 6.55 MiB (1%)

Here are the things that your render must match in order to have a prayer at smart rendering. The suggestion to render in Vegas rather than 3rd party software is a good one. Also, your encoder misreported the frame rate as NTSC.

Just asking...you are putting the rendered file back on the TL on a track above your project? Did you use exactly the same settings for the 'smart render'? You say that an MPEG2 file created with Vegas isn't recognised by Vegas? Are you sure it isn't an m2v? (Mpeg2 without audio). Vegas doesn't recognise these. A silly silly thing in my humble opinion.

Smart rendering in Vegas, other than DV, is non-functional.

However, you can use Vegas to edit MPEG-2 files (both SD and HD) and then export those edits to Womble and have it do the smart rendering.

To do this, save your project as an EDL text file (it's an option in the Save As dialog). Then, use this utility to instantly convert that EDL to a Womble project file:

EDL to Womble.

Then, open in Womble the file that this utility creates. Your project, as edited in Vegas, should show up on the timeline. Click on Export and the video will be losslessly cut into a new MPEG-2 file.

Has MPEG-2 smart rendering been removed? Not something I had been aware of, and surprising since it always worked as expected for me.

Works for me. I've always been able to smart-render HDV (1440x1080). In V12, I can even smart-render HD (720-60P) which I could not do in V10. I've also been able to smart-render Blu-ray (1920x1080,60i) renders, even from Grass Valley's Procoder (which I prefer over MC). Bottom line for me--it works for renders from Vegas, but very picky with renders from other encoders (e.g I cannot get it to smart-render 720-60P renders from Procoder).

wwaag

No problem with non-DV smart-render here, either. In fact I'm having incredibly fast smart-render reassembly times using the Matrox I-Frame-Only Mpeg2 codec. It plays back at full resolution, full frame rate, without any GPU acceleration needed [in fact, GPU assist actually slows it down] and then smart renders at like 1/10th real time!

I'm beside myself actually, and hoping that my partners will accept this codec as a delivery format.

Has MPEG-2 smart rendering been removed? Not something I had been aware of, and surprising since it always worked as expected for me.Well, I guess it is still there. I sure couldn't get it to work in some of the later Vegas versions but I'll admit that I haven't tried in V11, and I don't own V12.

However, I thought I'd read dozens of posts from people (prior to this one) saying that they couldn't get it to work. Also, as you already noted, everything has to match perfectly before Vegas will do the smart render. Womble (which I own and like) and VideoRedo (which I own and don't like at all) are much more forgiving.

As an aside, V12 does NOT smart-render Cineform avi files that I use all the time, unlike V10. However, replacing the V12 aviplug.dll with the V10 version makes the smart-render work again. Go figure.

wwaag

Smart rendering in Vegas, other than DV, is non-functional.

But it does work very well here - using it all the time with MainConcept mpeg-2 Full-HD at 31 Mbps - in Vegas 12, that is - but it also worked flawlessly in V11.

Hi

Right I used main concept option to make a mpeg 2 hd file in vegas then put it back in to vegas and was able to cut the file up change the order of the clips add x fades in between each clip and vola.... it did smart render all the video apart from the x fades

So all good there thanks to all who posted here

BUT.... it took ages to convert the file to mpeg 2 to start with my pc is clean install of windows 7 64bit 16meg ram intel i7 chip 2600k 3.4 Ghz 3 hard drives

The media converter software was much faster then vegas to make the mpeg2 file but vegas will not smart render the file from media converter

A pal of mine has a copy of upshift new blue he does not use it any more and sent it over to me

it has installed ok but what settings should I use so the output file it makes will smart render in vegas like the file I made in vegas did

Thanks for any help or ideas

Check the output you have made from Vegas with Mediainfo and which can smartrender.

BUT.... it took ages to convert the file to mpeg 2

The Main Concept encoders, both mpeg-2 and AVC are some of the slowest around but we are stuck with them. The MC mpeg-2 seems to be underneath all mpeg-2 outputs like HDCAM EX and such.

Sony does not publish the encoder plug-in interface for Vegas so the aftermarket cannot help here.

Btw.: why is it that you want so much to smartrender - I mean even make all the original media able for smartrendering ?

Would some proxy-media for better previewing be what you actually need ?

@NormanPCN: Yeah -such a Vegas version (open for high quality or fast or ... encoding plug-ins) would really be a must-have for many users. Count me in too.

Hi

I wanted to smart render to try to keep the quality up as far as poss

I figured that if it was possable to somehow change the avchd files to mpeg2 files I could convert them all in one go i.e overnight then use them to make videos in vegas and any other re-renders would only happen during titles fades ect

It looks really hard to do this with vegas

I fouind this afternoon if I import a avchd file and render it straight out as a HDV preset then bring that back in it works just as I want but the size is 1440 if I change the out in HDV to 1920 it works but no smart remnder

The bluray presets save ok but then vegas says it cannot import them all vey odd

I was hoping the upshift programme would do the job of changing the files but no setting in vegas seems to smart render those files

any ideas ?

The files that media converter makes that vegas does not like (mpeg2) smart render in magix and corel vs x5 but I would rather use the work flow offerd in vegas

In the help info it says vegas can smart render mpeg2 hd files it would be good if the help file stated how to make them !!

If I'm reading this correctly, you want to encode AVCHD to MPEG-2 so you can smart render. Kind of defeats the purpose unless you are going to do multiple generations in Vegas. A good intermediate like Cineform or DNxHD would do just as well.

The bluray presets save ok but then vegas says it cannot import them all vey odd That's because they are m2v files. Read my post again for how to get around this.

Just for general info to folks that are not able to smart render mpeg2, there is a tick box in prefs for it. Something like "enable long gop no recompress".

Thanks ever so for the tip about sound Arthur.S I forgot to set the bluray profile for 1 output file



I am wondereing if vegas can only smart render mpeg 2 files upto 1440 not 1920 as I found this in the help file



When you render video to any of the following formats, unedited video frames are passed through without recompression (smart rendering):

DV AVI

DV MXF

IMX MXF (IMX 24p MXF is not supported for no-recompress rendering)

HD MXF

MPEG-2 (for files such as those from HDV and DVD camcorders)

XDCAM EX supports smart rendering across the following formats:

SP 18.3 Mbps CBR 1280x720p to/from XDCAM EX and HDV HD-1

SP 25 Mbps CBR 1440x1080i to/from XDCAM EX, XDCAM HD, and HDV HD-2

HQ 35 Mbps VBR 1440x1080 to/from XDCAM EX and XDCAM HD

HQ 35 Mbps VBR 1280x720p to/from XDCAM EX

HQ 35 Mbps VBR 1920x1080 to/from XDCAM EX


I just did another clen install and here is what i got



AVCHD renderd using HDV 1080-50i with no changes preset gave


General
ID : 255 (0xFF)
Complete name : C:\Users\Edit\Desktop\1440 1st.m2t
Format : MPEG-TS
Commercial name : HDV 1080i
File size : 417 MiB
Duration : 2mn 13s
Start time : UTC 165-25-45 45:85:85
End time : UTC 165-25-45 45:85:85
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 26.2 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 33.0 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 165-25-45 45:85:85

Video
ID : 2064 (0x810)
Menu ID : 100 (0x64)
Format : MPEG Video
Commercial name : HDV 1080i
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High 1440
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 2mn 13s
Bit rate : 24.5 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 440 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.630
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 389 MiB (93%)
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709


The whole file was put back in vegas and renderd again with no edits cuts or changes it smart renderd with the same HDV preset and it gave


General
ID : 255 (0xFF)
Complete name : C:\Users\Edit\Desktop\1440 renderas.m2t
Format : MPEG-TS
Commercial name : HDV 1080i
File size : 417 MiB
Duration : 2mn 13s
Start time : UTC 165-25-45 45:85:85
End time : UTC 165-25-45 45:85:85
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 26.2 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 33.0 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 165-25-45 45:85:85

Video
ID : 2064 (0x810)
Menu ID : 100 (0x64)
Format : MPEG Video
Commercial name : HDV 1080i
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High 1440
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 2mn 13s
Bit rate : 24.5 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 440 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.630
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 389 MiB (93%)
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709


Same AVCHD file into vegas this time used bluray 1080 preset but saved the preset as a new one cos i made sure the audio was selected to be all in one stream file

vegas reneded it to a file that gives

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : C:\Users\Edit\Desktop\1920 ist go.m2t
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 415 MiB
Duration : 2mn 13s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 26.1 Mbps

Video
ID : 481 (0x1E1)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 2mn 13s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.470
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 387 MiB (93%)


put this file back into vegas renderd file useing same preset this time it did not smart render and gave this file

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : C:\Users\Edit\Desktop\1920 2nd go.m2t
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 415 MiB
Duration : 2mn 13s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 26.1 Mbps

Video
ID : 481 (0x1E1)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 2mn 13s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.470
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 387 MiB (93%)



any ideas ???

I wanted to smart render to try to keep the quality up as far as poss

You have to decode/encode at least once if your original media is not smartcodeable - AVCHD is not - for the time being, at least.

If you decode/encode even before putting the original video clips onto the timeline - then - if you do the slightest change like pan/crop, a little color correction, a little brightness, add subtitles etc etc. - Vegas is forced to go through a second decode/encode process - decreasing the quality a second time.
If you follow your thoughts above and convert your 1920x1080 AVCHD to 1440x1080 first - then the final result will be even worse if your delivery format is full HD (1920x1080).

As I wrote above I have been smart-rendering 1920x1080 50i in Vegas for years - so it can be done in Vegas for sure - but IMHO the best way is to keep the original media (in my case AVCHD 1920x1080 at some 24 Mbps) as long as possible - and then only if I am forced to render in between - like when deshaking something or making more complicated and very time consuming things like many-tracks-compositing or the like - then keep the result from these processes (often done in separate instances of Vegas) in a format equal to my delivery format for smart rendering and so save an extra and quality decreasing decode/encode process.

If your machine has problems previewing AVCHD reasonably there are many available tools *) for creating proxies - i.e. even in lower resolution.
Then you can do all the editing - and then finally change the proxies back to the original media before the final render to your delivery format.

*) like the ProxyStream script by Gilles Pialat

EDIT: Ah, yes, thank you Norman. Forgot it since I have not used proxies since SCS made that great quantum-leap speed improvement for AVCHD in - hmmm was it 10.0c ??

Vegas 12 even has a smart proxy feature. Everything automatic.