Sneak PeakFlash site UPDATED 8/30


BillyBoy wrote on 8/30/2004, 8:22 PM
Jason, how many times to do I have to repeat WORK IN PROGESS?

I only asked if people have trouble loading the site, and anything (SP2 specific) or browser or browser sniffer problems. That is resolved for now I know what the problems are. People using lower resolution still would like larger text. Got it.

You and others saying you can do similar things with DHTML or PHP backend, etc., etc., etc., I KNOW already. Been there did that ,YEARS ago. Others saying Flash isn't the right way to go, they hate it, etc., too bad. I wanted to do a all Flash site, that's what I'm trying to do. I know already it will be a bumpy ride. Most things worth doing ARE.

Further I WELL KNOW some people are pig headed and don't/won't change anything and resist anything and everything new, yet the same people expect others to cater to their every want and need. How quaint. ie I want my browser at 400x 300. I sometimes use 2500x1800 resolution, I sit in the dark with a fashlight and look at my 12 inch laptop to do editing, blah, blah, blah.

I am at least ASKING how people would like my site to look. Has anybody else bothered to do that? No they have not, and mostly all I'm hearing is complaints.

I been around and around on these kind of fluff issues YEARS AGO with Allan Flavell (self-appointed king of everything HTML. Didn't ask for or need advice on HTML.

'm still feeling my way around on Flash, that I can use some help with.
JasonMurray wrote on 8/30/2004, 8:54 PM
Actually I was just trying to help you fix your "things stay small as your resolution drops" issue.

I really don't care what fights you had with A.F.
Cheno wrote on 8/31/2004, 7:25 AM
"I am at least ASKING how people would like my site to look. Has anybody else bothered to do that? No they have not, and mostly all I'm hearing is complaints."

You're asking how we'd like your site to look? I think you need to look at some higher end websites or take a design class that teaches aesthetics if you're going to design a tutorial site that provides information.

I'd like the color palette to match. I'd like to read the fonts. I'd like your picture not to come up at the beginning.. that scares me. The music reminds me of a cheap porn movie.

I understand that it's a work in progress, however somethings shouldn't be shared until their a work finished.

Lanzaedit wrote on 8/31/2004, 7:41 AM
Mike (aka Cheno) wrote:

This is the guy I use for my flash needs. I think defining the look is a key to any good site. He's done a whiz bang job here. >>

You're right. That is a good site that obviously involved some planning and design.

And I also like the site mentioned by Ken Calhoun:

Again, planning and design make for good travel in cyberspace.

DavidMcKnight wrote on 8/31/2004, 8:52 AM
The thing about Flash is that it is all...well....flash. It's icing on the cake, purely presentation for the content. If you're (BB)) so concerned about the content, it needs to be presented cleanly such that the Flash elements don't get in the way. Believe me, I know that as a developer it's easy to get too close to something and not see the forest for the trees. And, knowing it's a work in progress helps, but not much.

There are many Flash templates and quick site designer utilities out there. If you're insistent on rolling your own, you might try fitting some of your content into one of those as Phase One, and then move up from there.

skibumm101 wrote on 8/31/2004, 12:40 PM
Using Firefox, Xp pro sp2. 1024x768.

The flash page is in the top %10 of my browser, apx 1inch by one inch big. also i hate audio that is loaded automaticly. I open your page while at work, and it sounds like i am watching a porno.
John_Cline wrote on 8/31/2004, 1:22 PM
Billy exclaimed, "I provide CONTENT."

If that's the case, then I suggest you drop the entire Flash thing and go with a simple web site filled with easy to access CONTENT. I tend to agree with the posts that suggest that you need to get some help with the look of your site, on both your current site and the beta Flash site, your choice of colors and font styles is, dare I say, really quite amateurish. Perhaps a black or white background with one font style and a few complimentary colors is really all you need. Your tutorials would be taken much more seriously if your site looked like you had some design skills to back them up.

Also, if you insist on using a picture of yourself, perhaps you need to use a different one. Your current photo is not particularly flattering. You may be a perfectly decent looking individual, but it is not in evidence in that particular photo.

BillyBoy wrote on 8/31/2004, 2:00 PM
I should accept advice from some clown that has has a web page up for years pretending he and Bill Gates had an hand in invented the PC?


You know what I think of you Cline. Everyone sees how hate filled you are and how you go out of your way to attack everything I do, everything I say, every chance you get.

Lanzaedit wrote on 8/31/2004, 2:15 PM
And with that said..."Ignore this user" feature is now turned on.

(Not referring to John Cline)

JasonMurray wrote on 8/31/2004, 3:34 PM
I should accept advice from some clown that has has a web page up for years pretending he and Bill Gates had an hand in invented the PC?

Actually, I think we were all rather hoping you'd read our advice and take it to heart, since you asked for it in the first place. I'm not so quick to use the Ignore User function, maybe that's my downfall.

Come on - take a minute and try to read through your original post and then your reactions objectively. First you vilify Microsoft for screwing up your website with XP-SP2 (let's be honest, if you didn't use such wacky code it wouldn't be a problem. There's no huge uproar elsewhere on the 'net about it).

Then, when many of us (myself included) try to get you to stop and question what you're doing and why you're doing it, you start ranting about Alan Flavell (two mentions) and going on about pigheaded users who refuse to bend to your will and so-called "advanced sites", when I'm sorry to say, but frankly it doesn't look like you've built one (this I say based on other users' comments about your site's presentation and useability).

You gave John Cline a mildly civilised response further back (about pizza shops, of all things), and then a frankly acidic and uncalled-for response that implies longstanding hatred that was posted not a million miles from this response (and no, not everyone sees this). Why the erratic behaviour?

I want to ask - and I'd like you to please just answer me instead of drowing me out with noise - what did you hope to accomplish by this in the first place? You've barely listened to any of our advice (I think your removal of the browser sniffer is all, and that one came from me), and you've offhandedly dismissed those of us who disagree with you.

Are you using this site as a testbed for your Flash abilities? If so, why? We'd all like some tutorials, and we'd all like them to be easy to access. Practice your Flash skills on another site, learn your craft and then bring it into the site you want everyone to see.

If you want to provide CONTENT (as you say), then use some kind of website content management framework and just write good CONTENT.

Good content means nothing when you alienate those who would use your website before they can get to it.

(We now return you to your regularly-scheduled flamethrowing...)
apit34356 wrote on 8/31/2004, 3:35 PM
billboy, its nice that you are seeking and are willing to listen to feedback. Feedback can be a monster, but lets stay positive. Criticism can be tough, but keep up the work, let a great website do your talking.
BillyBoy wrote on 8/31/2004, 4:22 PM
React objectiviely?

Lets see, I'm told my picture is ugly and scared someone.

I'm told the site looks amaturish several times, don't like the colors, don't like font, can't handle a brief musical introduction that's easily stopped my simplying clicking a button, etc..

I'm told the text is too small because some have their resolution set to 1024x768 yet I asked BEFORE I started the project and most that replied said they use 1280x1024.

Several complained about features I said up front weren't yet implemented.

I said expect rough edges and yet people complaiined that their Netscape browser chokes because its too dumb to understand width and height tags like nearly every other major browser does and has for years, yet somehow that's my fault.

Its also my fault that Micro-crap considers a new window a malicious pop-up and then without warning totally trashes JavaScripting code that was perfectly acceptable and used on millions of sites for years.

I glady accept well intented HELPFUL adivce. That's what I asked for. That's hardly what I got. Out of 50 odd replies YOURS Jasson and most others were condescending, rude, deliberatley mean spirited and spiteful. There was NOTHING objective in anything you said. You and a few others nitpicked on a site you knew upfront was a rough sneak peek put up for two reasons, to see first if orhwea got the same SP2 errors I did and to see if some had loading problems or any troubles reading the content, playing the movies, etc..

Instead of really helping you and others decided I needed to be "taught" HTML You and others made it clear you dislike Flash, and stuff like that.

Thanks for the "input" I didn't ask for. Its obvious you have no intenion of helping, you apparently enjoy nitpicking.

For those that actually want to see the site develop, it will. More than ever I'm determined to make it a showcase site and that's what it will be when its finished. Right now its about 10% done and if what I showed you is just a rough idea. Yet again because I DID IT, I'm nitpicked to pieces. Pretty obvious some here really hate me. That's more that obvious.

winrockpost wrote on 8/31/2004, 4:37 PM

I for one enjoy your tutorials,,
sometimes even get a kick out a you and Cline fussing like a couple a 12 year olds.
Bottom line is if you put something up for review, thicken your skin and hold on tight, no matter if its flash, a video,a story, whatever. If you ask for opinions they will come. Good bad and ugly. Everyone is a critic.
Spot|DSE wrote on 8/31/2004, 4:41 PM
I don't believe anyone is (yet) throwing arrows at you. You asked for response, and naturally, it's uncomfortable when people are frank about your hard work that you feel meets at least a modicum of expectation.
If you didn't want feedback, you wouldn't have asked for it, right?
Now...just as a historic comment...Remember "Am I posting too much?" It started as you asking (sincerely) if people were bothered by your posts. By the end of the thread, you were acerbic, name-calling, and flaming.
There are others, but moving forward....same thing with this thread. I believe John (and others) have tried to be pretty optimistic in having a dialog with you about your webpage. I know it's frustrating as hell to work your butt off on something and have it appear that people don't appreciate it. Been there many times myself, expect to be there many times again.
That said:
Whether it's YOUR site or anyone else' site...
The colors are challenging
The text too small
delivery format is flawed, IMO because of the time it takes.
Microsoft's fault or not, the CONTENT is being superceded/overshadowed by the format you've chosen to deliver it in.
OK, so you are dead set on using Flash. Fine. Your choice. But you should probably realize, as this thread suggests, that people are more interested in accessing the information than seeing really tweaked delivery methods, especially delivery methods that they're telling you they don't want.
Since no one is paying you for your content, it's really no one's business how you deliver, is it? It's YOUR site. Do with it what you want. Just realize that you'll get fewer eyeballs because of your determination that Flash is the future. Could it, would it, should it be that you are slightly on the bleeding edge of the future? How many of us have bought the latest, greatest, and coolest thing just a *little* too early and been bitten for doing so?
Either way dude....your site has some really nice stuff in it.'s tough to see, tough to comprehend, and tough to deal with when you get overthetop pissed because folks are responding to exactly what you asked.
I respectfully suggest you let this thread run as it WAS running til you flamed John (and probably me next) for responding to you in an objective tone.
No one cares about your flame wars over HTML, CSS, ASP, or anything else. What you asked for was response on your current site. The only posts that get far away from that are yours. everyone else has thus far, stayed on topic, and been civil. Except you.
Chill out, work on your site, I'm sure it will be great.
BTW, I don't think your picture is ugly, but if that's's probably not the most flattering picture in your photo album....definitely doesn't fit the techno-geek image I have of you.
John_Cline wrote on 8/31/2004, 4:49 PM

You're hopeless. Yes, I reviewed your new web site AND I offered a suggestion or two AND I did it in a most civil manner. Instead of responding to the criticism in the manner in which it was offered, you launch the same old tired personal attack which has become your trademark. Once again, I can absolutely prove my involvement in the Altair 8800 project, but I'm not going to waste a nanosecond of my time proving it to you.

As far as me being "hated filled," that really couldn't be further from the truth. By any reasonable count, there is only ONE, SINGLE person around here that has a history of being filled with hate (and rage) and everyone knows exactly who it is.

Having recently learned your real name, address and phone number, I did a little searching and discovered that this certainly isn't the only forum in which your antisocial behavior has earned you some enemies.

I don't know why people bother with you. You asked what we thought about your web site, we checked it out and offered suggestions about how to better present your content. I guess you were expecting us to say it was the "greatest web site we had ever seen," but no one did and you went ballistic. You know, you can do whatever you want with your web site...

Jason_Abbott wrote on 8/31/2004, 5:03 PM
I can second that (Firefox note). Firefox 0.9.3 didn't work at all on the first page and on the direct link to /fullscreen.htm it attempts to display the entire flash object in a small block at the top of the web page, unreadable. FWIW, the blocking added to IE under SP2 is a lot less restrictive than what has long been available in most of the browser alternatives, so if you're having problems with IE, it may be even worse elsewhere.

I too would encourage using Flash in a purely supplemental fashion.

- Jason Abbott
apit34356 wrote on 8/31/2004, 5:18 PM
billyboy, I believe that earlier i said that I Liked your 3D, but the text was too small. I had read your intro about being in develoment and I responsed that your spinning cd was very cool, but the spinning world needed more, especially when compared to your tutorial pages, which were great.

I have not been able to see your latest changes, though I have tried to load them, I plan to try later.

Since you stated your website was going to be leading edge, don't be surprised that there are people who do not agree. Flash websites are not new. But I Like the POSER app in your tutorial examples, hope to see C4d with vegas examples, too.

WELL, about your picture, you put it on your website, brave you are, but any picture is going to attract some negative feedback, more so, when you get into heated debates. Sometimes, you seem to run around with a lightingrod in your hand during a lighting storm and then you ask why you got hitted by lighting.

Are some comments about you unfair, probably so. But sometimes you are unfair in your comments. Whether John Cline is Bill Gates or a lost soul, does it really matter?

But I have noticed you helping people with actual examples, which is really cool.
JasonMurray wrote on 8/31/2004, 5:43 PM
I'm sorry if you think I'm condescending. I don't litter my posts with smileys and I try to type complete sentences, especially when I'm being serious about something.

Those of us who are suggesting alternatives are doing so because we're trying to help your PROJECT to be successful, and believe that you will be able to build a better website if you don't go the Flash route. We're trying to help you, it's as simple as that.

I now work for a company that's been building Flash-based websites for the last few years. Site maintenance is a nightmare and it's incredibly difficult to get Flash to do a number of things we're trying (so I'm not surprised at the difficulties you're encountering). They're now finding, like many of the "big boys", that there are better delivery methods for their content. I'm just trying to show you these.

A lot of web developers were stung by the browser wars, and gave up on HTML. You sound like one of them. I'm just trying to tell you that it's safe to jump back in the water these days.
apit34356 wrote on 8/31/2004, 6:00 PM
jasonMurray, you are right on about flash being a nightmare when it comes to site maintenance. I know about a couple bands that was talked into being all flash, long load times lost them a number of online fans, maintenance fees are killing them. One band a produce a musicvideo with their flash site in mind, a lot of extra, ...... its is not a happy ending, their recording contract included the website, lawyers and lawyers......
Sab wrote on 8/31/2004, 7:34 PM
Hello BB, how are you?

It seems like you enjoy conflict for some reason. You ask for opinions, get them and then blow up.

Personally, I wouldn't have asked opinions on a project that is only 10% finished as you stated in your last post. At that point in any project, there are usually too many rough edges. Keep working and give us another peek at the 75% mark. Then at least we'll all get to see more of your vision on this project. After all, it is YOUR vision, not ours.

I tend to agree with those who say your content is good but buried under way too much stuff. But it's just an opinion. I'm not going to fight with you so please don't try.

BillyBoy wrote on 8/31/2004, 8:33 PM
I asked for an opinion on loading/browser issues. I I agree the text is small and will be addressed. How many times have I said that now 5, 10 times?

I find it silly that I get painted as the hot head when its my critics that are ranting they don't like Flash or if your use Flash don't make it all Flash and oh by the way I won't visit if you go full screen when I said at the beginning that's was I was doing.

We can agree on one thing. ITS MY SITE and it will be as I think it works best. I'm simply asking for opinion on text size and loading. I realize I can't and for sure won't please everyone but at least I ask because I'm doing it for those that said they benefit from the turoirals.

Its a no win situation. If I ask early on in the development stage when its easy to change I get critized for having a undone site. If I wait till its 75% done or later the same people will expect me to go back and change everything to suit them. Its the same critics that said my other side is too plain. Now I'm critizing for going too fancy.

I also plan or had planned to write many more tutorials. My first site was in no kind of order. I justed added the lastest tutorial to the bottom. This new site is designed to make it easy for me to add more without having to rearrage eveything each time I add something new.

I'm sure most will like it once it starts to take shape. I don't mind being critiqued, but taking cheap shots and obviously rude remarks are uncalled for.
JasonMurray wrote on 8/31/2004, 8:54 PM
I'm simply asking for opinion on text size and loading.

Fair enough. You just didn't say that at the start of all this.
Matt_Iserman wrote on 8/31/2004, 9:54 PM

I'd say it was a good idea in this case to get feedback early on in the process (for which, by the way, you did ask... "Comments pro or con are of course always appreciated and welcome. I can't fix it if nobody tells me what's broke. <wink>" - from BillyBoy's initial post in this thread.)

Well, the feedback you are getting is exactly that... a lot of people are saying "it's broke" and telling you exactly where, providing thoughts as to why and providing alternative possibilities.

This is the type of feedback I crave. All to often, when I show my work to people and plead for honest, harsh criticism, they just say, "It looks good." (This might have to do with living in Minnesota.) Fortunately, my wife can be brutally honest. My challenge is to not get defensive and to try to identify when she is right (which, by the way, I have found to be about 90% of the time).

(On a side note, I have a trailer for my latest project on my site if anyone is interested.)

It's a lot of work to put together an all Flash site and it would have been unfortunate to end up with a product in which no one was interested. As such, I think the feedback you are getting now can go a long way to improve the site as long as you understand that the criticism is of the site, not you. (And this includes your photo. The quality of the photo is poor and that has nothing to do with the subject of said photo.)

I've enjoyed your tutorials in the past and was curious as to what would happen when you originally announced converting it to Flash. What I was hoping for was Flash movies that demonstrated your techniques embedded in traditional HTML pages.

Personally, up until I purchased SwishMax and thus became curious as to how Flash was being used, I would hit the back button as soon as I saw a Flash load screen appear even though I have broadband.

I don't care for Flash sites for many of the same reasons stated by others previously. The technology is promising by has severe limitations in comparison to more traditional web content creation languages.

In my opinion, the best sites using Flash use it sparingly and only for elements for which it is more effective than HTML.

On a more personal note, I've been watching this thread for awhile without commenting. Why? Because it has progressed along a predictable course considering the player(s).

I got to tell you, if I could go back in time and kick Allen Flavell's ass, I would. If he would not have insisted he was right when he was so (apparently - I don't know the whole story) wrong, maybe you wouldn't have taken that as evidence that anyone who disagrees with him is in the de facto wrong.

I don't think that for my benefit; I say it for yours. Open your mind and consider what others have said. Consider the possibility that you may be mistaken.

I had a boss who would say that "Feedback is the Breakfast of Champions." He was right. BillyBoy, you now need to stop your bulemic attitude toward others' feedback. Let the feedback digest a couple days and then address it rationally.

Take care and good luck with the site. I hope it turns out great.

Matt Iserman

apit34356 wrote on 8/31/2004, 10:50 PM
billboy, how about a couple of hints about your future tutorials? If you are open to suggestions, how about a tutorial using vegas in frameserver mode, in/out, simple and advance configurations. I think a lot of users could benefit.