Somebody who finally understands it the way it is

deusx wrote on 4/13/2007, 6:02 PM
Don't know if it has been posted here yet, but sums up nicely what Vegas does well, why it is the best, and what it's missing, and also mentions the truth about FCP ( that it is basically an inferior app driven, like everything apple, mostly by hype, just like I already told you :-) )

quoting begins here:

Sony, the cocky young upstart with
their media suite of Vegas, Soundforge, Acid and DVD Architect have
gained an enormous amount of market ground and credibility in the
face of bigger, stiffer, more established competition. Enough to be
considered a very serious contender against the three A's. But still
their biggest battle in perception. Still far too many editors
respond to the Sony Vegas name with the words "never heard of
it". The simple fact is they should have and need to, as Vegas
is arguably the most forward thinking and efficient NLE on the market
today. 100% Resolution and Codec independent long before anyone else
had considered such a thing possible. The best audio tools of any NLE
on the market. The best compositing options of any NLE on the market.
Wrapped around a very competent and flexible editor in ways capable
of editing feats other apps can only dream about. Any format, just
about any codec, any resolution, any frame rate, mixed together on
one timeline, real-time playback, no waiting for rendering. Once you
have had this efficiency in Vegas its very hard to go back to
anything else. When you've had the ability adjust any and all effects
and filters in real-time preview whilst the timeline plays back
anything just seems slow....

Vegas is in may ways heading in a
similar vein to Adobe but in the somewhat opposite direction - rather
than half a dozen apps in one box, Vegas is embracing complete
editing, audio production and effective compositing in the one app
rather than across different apps. Sound Forge is amazing audio
surgery, Acid is an incredibly powerful multi-track recorder and
sequencer but the truth is that Vegas doesn't Need either to function
is a very holistic manner for end to end production. Vegas is very
much part of the new bread and the three A's would do well to watch
very closely what Vegas does every step forward form here as it has
always been two steps ahead of them.

However Sony are at a crucial point –
no support for 10bit production seriously hampers Vegas' pro cred
with studios; limited functionality for titling almost no
inter-change between other Sony applications; and limited third party
plug-in support – These criticisms all make Vegas vulnerable to
growing into the truly comprehensive tool it promises to be. More than anything what Sony need to do
with Vegas is built credibility, market perception and a tighter
relationship with third party developers of both hardware and
software. Hopefully NAB07 will deliver these things.

And then there's Apple. Arguably, on
the surface at least, the most confused one of the bunch. Fact is the
bulk of FCP users are indie film-makers, low budget movie guerrillas,
corporate video makers, wedding videographers. But Apple are
consistently marketing to, and marketing on, an appeal to the very
high end (Walter Murch, David Fincher, Cold Mountain and so on).
Their plan seems to be to maintain their low-end user base bread and
butter market sector by appealing to the low-end's ever present
desire to be the high end. People use FCP for their low-budget
projects because at night they dream of being David Fincher and they
perceive FCP as being the choice of the dynamic high-end. Apple are
selling the aspiration rather than the reality of the tool. Its a
strategy that in theory has a lot of legs. BUT... By going after that
traditionally Avid market perception they have, over several past
versions, neglected a great many of the things that indie, self
reliant film-makers really need in their NLE and post-production
suite. FCP's congenially traditional approach to editing, its focus
on off-lining, cinema tools, segmented workflow and non-inclusion of
decent audio tools, no surround sound and very limited compositing
and colour grading, is fine and great for NBC and traditional
Hollywood who have no need of these things but is arguably of great
detriment to the indie, guerilla film-maker base. The Apple suite, as
a bundle, is decidedly weak. FCP is a very focused and limited editor
that cannot function on its own so it needs audio and compositing
tools. Sadly Soundtrack is a cruel joke of an audio system (VU meters
that have no dBfs markings or numeric read outs!!! WTF??) DVD Studio
pro is excellent but Motion is sorely lacking by comparison to
competition like After Effects. Its a mixed bag.

full article was here:


jaydeeee wrote on 4/13/2007, 7:00 PM
More "we're #1" stuff...(minus the reality of being #1).
Test this and post this on the other boards if you want some varied feedback, it's rather pointless posting it here (know what I mean?).

Wow, if someone needs to keep reading this stuff just to ignore all other tools...yikes!

Same reply from these bleachers...
Vegas IS great - but Vegas is not the "be all end all" tool. You read it here everyday. I love Vegas but I'm just keeping things real, rather than searching for pro vegas barbs maybe one could use that time learning other tools and incorporate all of them ?

John_Cline wrote on 4/13/2007, 7:18 PM

Personally, I happen to be interested in the perception of others regarding Vegas. I appreciated this post, it was interesting reading and not necessarily an article I would have run across on my own.

p@mast3rs wrote on 4/13/2007, 7:26 PM
From the article: "All four of these NLE systems have the
potential at this NAB to bring about great changes and go in great
directions. All four could squander the opportunity and maintain an
apathetic status quo... we shall see...."

I don't think Sony brings anything substantial to NAB other than SF9's ability to support video a bit more. As I said earlier, there doesn't seem to be a Vegas 8 and if there is, would mark the first time someone didn't let the cat out of the bag early. Even if there were a V8, anything LESS than next gen authoring and its dead from the start. Surely i cant see anyone upgrading just for improved titling which I still have doubts will EVER be addressed.

From the looks on paper, Adobe has finally got it. From Shock wave authoring with DVD menus, to Clip Notes, to the mad amount of programs and acquisitions (Serious Magic) included, they have essentially provided an indie film maker with the tools to shoot an entire feature without having to go to another program that cannot utilize Dynamic Link. Vegas can be used to do most of the same stuff but not without having to render to third party apps like AE for serious titling etc...

While it may sound like I am championing Adobe, Im rather sad at Vegas' current state. Vegas seemed to come out of no where and took the NLE by storm. Adobe and others quickly fumbled trying to play catch up. But Adobe has seemed to have found its footing and integrated an amazing set of programs and features for not much more than the cost of Vegas+DVD, AE, and Photoshop.

The sad fact is no matter how much Sony does now, it will be hard to overcome the interoperability since they dont own a codec like Flash or formats like PSD or PDF in order to give users the same capabilities found in their latest offerings added to the fact that if there is no V8 on Monday, Adobe has beaten Sony to the punch offering Sony's own BD authoring before Sony even did. Call it what you will but that is major egg on Sony's face.

Avid is a great NLE but you have to devote much time to it for some tasks. I cant speak on FCP nor do I want to at the price point of a the software and the cost of a super duper uber mac these days.

NAB thus far seems like it is Adobe's for the taking on the PC side and perhaps even the Mac side unless Apple comes out with some major info and features for FCP 6 which still wont ship until after Leopard in October is my guess.
Coursedesign wrote on 4/13/2007, 9:23 PM
Certainly the best summary of Vegas I have ever seen.

Also the worst summary of the Apple suite I have ever seen.

This guy should go visit BBC and many other major outfits to see why they reach for Motion when they already have After Effects on their machines. It's just a different tool, and Motion is just more efficient for certain things (in addition to costing a fraction of AE for those who don't want to spend) .

Because of the incredible volume of FCP licenses (500,000+), there is a whole universe of 3rd party tools that have no equivalent anywhere else such as zooming in on resolution-independent PDF files, and much, much more.
deusx wrote on 4/13/2007, 11:08 PM
This was in no way one of those " we're #1 posts"

That was just a part of the article, and I posted the link to the whole thing, he has a lot of good things to say about Adobe and Avid.

We have so many discussions of this kind, and I thought this was the most accurate description of what Vegas does well, why it's good, and what needs to improve.
Spot|DSE wrote on 4/13/2007, 11:16 PM
Mike is one of the most well-rounded video editors I know; he does a tremendous amount of work for ABC/Aunty, and one of the few certified in virtually every software one can think of. Not to mention a good author, and very talented person. Wish we could get him here to the States for a coupla months. He's very Adobe-savvy, and teaches FCP pretty consistently.
Coursedesign wrote on 4/14/2007, 12:26 AM
Like I said, his analysis of Vegas was brilliant, but his analysis of Final Cut Studio shows a lack of understanding of how it is actually used.

If he is teaching it, I feel a bit concerned for his students. Perhaps he teaches only Final Cut Pro without going into the other tools, but then you quickly run into limitations, where it is appropriate to use adjunct tools as recommended by Apple even.

Soundtrack Pro is a cheap and cheerful basic sound editor for those who can't afford Pro Tools.

Motion is an inexpensive motion graphics package that is well integrated with FCP, handles high-bit video and XML input so you can for example use a simple plug-in to give it a text file with 40 names and titles and have it immediately spit out high class lower thirds for these people in the right place in your finished interviews without waiting.

Another inexpensive but powerful plug-in, Conduit, provides GPU-accelerated greenscreen keying and nodal compositing inside Motion and FCP (

Apple was dragged into the high end film editing world, kicking and screaming even, by Walter Murch, because he was getting pissed off with Avid's arrogance.

It took quite a while before Apple gathered up enough courage to talk about the high end, and it took lots of support from other companies too. Today that support is widespread, but it is of course not 100%. For raw elbow-to-elbow editing, Avid still is king, and for fast finishing you can't beat a Smoke. Still, there are FCP systems everywhere, and they are unquestionably #1 over a large swath of the industry.

I have to say it would be great to see Vegas implement 10-bit video and higher and the few other things that would make it possible for it to make serious inroads into the pro market beyond weddings and school events.

Could even start right now with Mike Jones as the lead copywriter, instead of someone from the Acme Advertising agency Madison is using now.

I'll even volunteer to throw in my services as Vegas ad copy reviewer for free (my ad writing has gotten thank-you letters and phone calls continuously for many years).

If Mike won't volunteer to write an ad for Vegas, I'll do it. "First fix is free."

Assuming Madison isn't so thrilled with their current advertising they'll just want to continue with that as a matter of course (which is often the case with corporate advertising).

jaydeeee wrote on 4/14/2007, 12:40 AM
>>Personally, I happen to be interested in the perception of others regarding Vegas.<<<

I know. I just read it and it sounded like another we're #1 review...when I get the feeling most here do wish it were true.

Ya know John, I read it and just became a little saddened of the "sluggish" pace that seems to always be inherent in SF/now Sony's products and fight to gain/regain a strong foothold.
Here we have Vegas, which to me has a UI that screams get to work...but it's burden has always been it's sluggish pace of growth (if we compare to CS3 especially).

SF9 is a great example. Now we're finally seeing an update (a minimal update at that)?

It just doesn't HAVE to be like this.
John_Cline wrote on 4/14/2007, 8:41 AM
You know jaydeeee, it sounds like you are a perfect candidate to buy CS3 and race right ahead of us sluggish Vegas proponents.

"Hey, look at all the cool new features of CS3!"

"Yes, but it crashes pretty regularly."

"Yeah, I know... but look at all the cool new features!!"

"Uh, right."

Sounds like a tortise and hare situation to me. Thanks, but I'll just continue using Vegas without the drama associated with a crash when I'm under a deadline and get my work done and keep my clients happy.
p@mast3rs wrote on 4/14/2007, 9:25 AM
In all in fairness, I have yet to have PP2 crash on me since it was released. However I have had Vegas crash several times with a large number of HDV clips in the timeline. Doesnt mean either one is less stable.
rmack350 wrote on 4/14/2007, 12:15 PM
The sorts of problems we're seeing with PP2 systems are very similar to the problems Vegas has had with HDV, but with much simpler non mpeg footage. Same symptoms, different causes. Crashing, running out of memory, constantly rechecking the timeline, superslow loading, inability to complete a PTT, etc. Roundtrip out to another adobe app and then back can be a real drag when the timeline is rechecked.

As you're saying, this doesn't happen all the time, just when you do certain things or work in certain ways that you might have gotten used to in the previous 15 years of editing with other NLE systems. So maybe old habits need to be broken and experienced editors need to let the software retrain them.

Hopefully (for adobe) CS3 will be a much more solid application.

What most of us are seeing is a list of things Adobe says their suite can do that we know from experience that the Sony applications can't do. On paper, that list sounds really good. In practice, a lot of it is stuff you can live without or can accomplish quite well using those same supporting apps with Vegas.

Of course, it's not very sexy to say you can live without this stuff. There's no doubt that Madison needs to step up to the plate with 10-bit processing and some sort of guaranteed full framerate preview, and there are lots of things they should do to make their suite sound more attractive to people.

Rob Mack
jaydeeee wrote on 4/14/2007, 2:10 PM
>>You know jaydeeee, it sounds like you are a perfect candidate to buy CS3 and race right ahead of us sluggish Vegas proponents.<<<

What? I think you misunderstood. Of course we'll be updating to CS3, just as with Vegas and many other tools.

>>>"Hey, look at all the cool new features of CS3!"

"Yes, but it crashes pretty regularly."<<

Well, says you. I'm not experiencing a lot of serious "crashing" issues (with Vegas or PS/PP/AE (etc..etc.)