Sony HDV solution
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farss
wrote on 11/13/2004, 8:18 PM
Give us a break, I'm from Oz and I THINK 24P SUCKS too.
Bob.
Bob.
apit34356
wrote on 11/13/2004, 8:21 PM
BJ_M, the fixed GOP is a math solution for encoding mpeg2, controlled by firewire standards and battery life considerations. Battery life is critical issue in camera electronics., with the increase in pixels, more cpu speed is required but speed requires current. A fixed GOP means a pre -determined encoding pattern, which means it can be fine tuned.
apit34356
wrote on 11/13/2004, 8:23 PM
Does anyone think 24p is great?
John_Cline
wrote on 11/13/2004, 8:29 PM
24P is GROSSLY overrated. I want more temporal resolution, not less!
John
John
Sunfox
wrote on 11/13/2004, 8:48 PM
Reminds me of my Philips 34" TV. It has a framerate doubler and runs at 120hz interlaced. The effect is errie and quite disconcerting for the first week or two and freaks everyone out the first time they see it. It's sort of like you're *not* looking at a recorded image. But you really get used to it, and after a while going back to a *normal* TV looks so... blah, so lifeless, so fake.
Anyways, I'm way out of my league in this thread, but find it interesting reading.
Anyways, I'm way out of my league in this thread, but find it interesting reading.
bowman01
wrote on 11/13/2004, 8:58 PM
anyone here know if there is a stand alone wmv hd player available?
BJ_M
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:09 PM
the other OZ -- as in wizard :)
Spot|DSE
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:09 PM
To tackle 3 different posts at once...
EVERYONE seems to love 24P. I can't COUNT the number of dorks that have written me telling me the new Sony camcorder sucks because it doesn't acquire at 24P. You should read the thread that's at least half dense on the DV.com site. Aside from the drunken writer for DV.com, it's still full of half-educated statements just about 24P alone.
Apit, reading you tell BJ_M about MPEG is funny. Not making fun of you, but telling him about MPEG is akin to telling me how to play the flute. He does MPEG all day long and in his sleep, working for a seriously testosterone-laden facility in Canada. I'm sure he's at least smiling as he reads this.
BJ_M, post a link again to your company site, I can't find it. Scary gear there.
EVERYONE seems to love 24P. I can't COUNT the number of dorks that have written me telling me the new Sony camcorder sucks because it doesn't acquire at 24P. You should read the thread that's at least half dense on the DV.com site. Aside from the drunken writer for DV.com, it's still full of half-educated statements just about 24P alone.
Apit, reading you tell BJ_M about MPEG is funny. Not making fun of you, but telling him about MPEG is akin to telling me how to play the flute. He does MPEG all day long and in his sleep, working for a seriously testosterone-laden facility in Canada. I'm sure he's at least smiling as he reads this.
BJ_M, post a link again to your company site, I can't find it. Scary gear there.
BJ_M
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:24 PM
thanks for the plug on mpeg encoding !
some of our web sites/divisions
http://www.iwerks.com
http://www.iwerksturboride.com/
http://www.simex-iwerks.com
http://www.simexds.com/
http://www.planetpoint.com/simex/index.html
and this division mentioned in this pressrelease but rolled into main company http://www.bigmoviezone.com/articles/?uniq=32
some of our web sites/divisions
http://www.iwerks.com
http://www.iwerksturboride.com/
http://www.simex-iwerks.com
http://www.simexds.com/
http://www.planetpoint.com/simex/index.html
and this division mentioned in this pressrelease but rolled into main company http://www.bigmoviezone.com/articles/?uniq=32
BJ_M
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:31 PM
yes there is
BJ_M
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:34 PM
but DiVX HD is higher quality and you can get a stand alone player for that also ....
Not in the usa yet though, in Japan ..
Not in the usa yet though, in Japan ..
BJ_M
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:37 PM
check out this product ---- plays back HD , from disk or from your network ..
http://www.iodata.com/usa/products/products.php?cat=HNP&sc=AVEL&pId=AVLP2%2FDVDLA
the wireless option is not in the USA and USA model will have some other changes ..
http://www.iodata.com/usa/products/products.php?cat=HNP&sc=AVEL&pId=AVLP2%2FDVDLA
the wireless option is not in the USA and USA model will have some other changes ..
bowman01
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:48 PM
Thanks BJ_M
apit34356
wrote on 11/13/2004, 9:55 PM
Spot, I have no doubt that BJ_M works heavily in Mpeg formats, I have been impress with his knowledge of endhigh apps and his knowledge of conversions from film to digital. I have found BJ_M post always on the money. BJ_M and about four other posters make this forum interesting and have raised my interest in vegas. My comment was relatived to fix format issue related to power management, where I have some expierence, having actual design cpu ics for TI and IBM for very high performance "imaging" systems. So if you talking design or math theory or opticals you may be surprise what I have designed and build, who I have worked with or I'm currently working with. Its always funny how patterns forms, like clients that uses 3 letters for their name and you have three of them......
BJ_M
wrote on 11/13/2004, 10:14 PM
i could see that maybe being a energy savings- but wouldn't the transport mechanical mechanism be the real power hog ? along with the firewire sub system, which i recall is also real power puller..
also - it is no more pixels processed one way or the other, in fact with the GOP they have now, it adds two extra B frames, which means more processing. If power were the mitigating factor , they would have used closed GOPs wouldn't they ?
also - it is no more pixels processed one way or the other, in fact with the GOP they have now, it adds two extra B frames, which means more processing. If power were the mitigating factor , they would have used closed GOPs wouldn't they ?
apit34356
wrote on 11/13/2004, 11:18 PM
BJ_M, I'll a slow typer, please have patience and thank you for asking.
One, I did not design the Sony chip, so I'm relying on similar design issues,( secondly, GOP frame structure is only summarize, not detailed out here)
1; The transport mechs energy consumption is a fixed rate,
2. firewire transmittion enegry consumption is based on use and trans. rate on most circuits,
3. the increase CCD size and that is it a true 16X9 layout has increases the required power needed,
4. the cpu now needs to operate at higher freq just to capture the image and put into the desire output, higher freq means more power consumption, additional computations required for a variable format requires more speed, more energy. A fixed length GOP or data stream reallys means that the encoding pmeg2 using motion vectors used in a variable length are not used in this approach. If you were to break out a 1000 GOPs, you would see a fixed , very limited data set merge out of the data. CCD images ---> mapped to a limited sets GOPs and the fields that make up the GOPs.
5.There is no additional power require for this type of transmitt rate.
6. Since this a mass produce product, the cpu ic needs to be cost effective, small enough to fit inside the camera, not to produce too much heat,( effecting CCDs) ,
Basicly, a fixed length transmittion scheme usually always reflects some form of limitation.
One, I did not design the Sony chip, so I'm relying on similar design issues,( secondly, GOP frame structure is only summarize, not detailed out here)
1; The transport mechs energy consumption is a fixed rate,
2. firewire transmittion enegry consumption is based on use and trans. rate on most circuits,
3. the increase CCD size and that is it a true 16X9 layout has increases the required power needed,
4. the cpu now needs to operate at higher freq just to capture the image and put into the desire output, higher freq means more power consumption, additional computations required for a variable format requires more speed, more energy. A fixed length GOP or data stream reallys means that the encoding pmeg2 using motion vectors used in a variable length are not used in this approach. If you were to break out a 1000 GOPs, you would see a fixed , very limited data set merge out of the data. CCD images ---> mapped to a limited sets GOPs and the fields that make up the GOPs.
5.There is no additional power require for this type of transmitt rate.
6. Since this a mass produce product, the cpu ic needs to be cost effective, small enough to fit inside the camera, not to produce too much heat,( effecting CCDs) ,
Basicly, a fixed length transmittion scheme usually always reflects some form of limitation.
BJ_M
wrote on 11/14/2004, 7:50 AM
OK - very interesting.
I would have assumed the motors and LCD display and firewire would be so much of the power users, that the circuitry inside would be negligible amounts (within reason) ..
I would have assumed the motors and LCD display and firewire would be so much of the power users, that the circuitry inside would be negligible amounts (within reason) ..
Spot|DSE
wrote on 11/14/2004, 2:36 PM
I'm in total agreement.
One argument that I hear is just the "emotional quotient" of 24P. Frankly, I see that in the Sony Z1 cam. Is it exactly the same as film? Nope. Neither is the DVX 100. Argument lost on me then. If you want that exact emotional quotient, shoot film.
Next argument: "I gotta have 24P for matchback to film." OK, who here has done a matchback to film that was shot on a 24P camera? If so, why would you be using Vegas? Why would you be using a DV cam?
Next argument: "24P saves a lot of space on the DVD."
OK, I can buy/do buy this argument. In fact, I've used it frequently. You'd be surprised at how many of the VASST DVDs are done at 24P AFTER being acquired at 60i. And it gives an interesting cadence. Still not the same as being acquired at 24p.
Next argument: "24p is what George Lucas shoots at, if it's good enough for him it's great for me." Hello?! George Lucas doesn't shoot with a 4000.00 camera from Panasonic. He shoots with Sony Cinealta cams. Add another pair of zeros to the above figure, you too can have your own Cinealta with great glass. (ok, that's an exaggeration, Cinealta's don't cost 400K with glass, but it's closer than 4K is.) The Cinealta also doesn't use 1/3 chips.
Color and cadence are both what we want, yes? The "feel" of 24P with the depth of color that we get with 60i lit and shot well. So, with the new HDV cam, we get additional spatial resolution, nearly triple, actually. We get to keep our temporal resolution as well. We can always reduce spatial or temporal resolution in post.
Now I'll be real insane in the minds of those that love 24p.
The film look is SO MUCH MORE than 24P. It's widescreen. It's colorspace management. It's color bloom, it's glow, it's saturation, it's cadence, it's how things are shot, it's depth of field, and those are the things that REALLY count.
Show the average joe something that has shallow DOF, that is letterboxed, with slightly saturated colors, and he'll tell you it's film. Toss in 24P and that's just icing on the cake, but the sweetness in what people perceive isn't the cadence itself.
People in other forums are pissing on the Z1 because it's missing 24 at acquisition. Doesn't matter that Sony is concerned about image quality first, oh no! They want 24P regardless of how weak it looks by comparison, and that Sony knew people were after the "look" more than the math.
But they fail to mention the AWESOME depth of field this cam gives.
They fail to mention the program modes that will allow for smooth, sweet rack focus or whatever else you want to program in there.
They fail to mention the black/white monitoring or the zoomable monitoring that allows for tight focus control in a hostile/run n' gun environment.
They fail to mention Hypergain, which is a BIG damn deal with it's floating point capability. Read http://www.sony.jp/products/Professional/c_c/ to know more. (it's in Japanese, use a translator)
They fail to mention the SMPTE TC.
They fail to mention the color peaking
They fail to mention the DVCam mode
or the 14 programmable modes
or the dual NTSC or PAL modes...
And so much more!
The lens on this series alone is super slammin, and blows away anything in its class. The Canon XL2 requires the broadcast lens to look this good.
I've seen what this cam can do, and was really impressed with what it shoots and delivers. It's not HDCam, it's certainly not DV. Conforming the MPEG to the intermediary makes for a wonderful experience, giving you 29.97 playback on a reasonably fast system.
I guess this turned into a rant, didn't mean for it to.
One argument that I hear is just the "emotional quotient" of 24P. Frankly, I see that in the Sony Z1 cam. Is it exactly the same as film? Nope. Neither is the DVX 100. Argument lost on me then. If you want that exact emotional quotient, shoot film.
Next argument: "I gotta have 24P for matchback to film." OK, who here has done a matchback to film that was shot on a 24P camera? If so, why would you be using Vegas? Why would you be using a DV cam?
Next argument: "24P saves a lot of space on the DVD."
OK, I can buy/do buy this argument. In fact, I've used it frequently. You'd be surprised at how many of the VASST DVDs are done at 24P AFTER being acquired at 60i. And it gives an interesting cadence. Still not the same as being acquired at 24p.
Next argument: "24p is what George Lucas shoots at, if it's good enough for him it's great for me." Hello?! George Lucas doesn't shoot with a 4000.00 camera from Panasonic. He shoots with Sony Cinealta cams. Add another pair of zeros to the above figure, you too can have your own Cinealta with great glass. (ok, that's an exaggeration, Cinealta's don't cost 400K with glass, but it's closer than 4K is.) The Cinealta also doesn't use 1/3 chips.
Color and cadence are both what we want, yes? The "feel" of 24P with the depth of color that we get with 60i lit and shot well. So, with the new HDV cam, we get additional spatial resolution, nearly triple, actually. We get to keep our temporal resolution as well. We can always reduce spatial or temporal resolution in post.
Now I'll be real insane in the minds of those that love 24p.
The film look is SO MUCH MORE than 24P. It's widescreen. It's colorspace management. It's color bloom, it's glow, it's saturation, it's cadence, it's how things are shot, it's depth of field, and those are the things that REALLY count.
Show the average joe something that has shallow DOF, that is letterboxed, with slightly saturated colors, and he'll tell you it's film. Toss in 24P and that's just icing on the cake, but the sweetness in what people perceive isn't the cadence itself.
People in other forums are pissing on the Z1 because it's missing 24 at acquisition. Doesn't matter that Sony is concerned about image quality first, oh no! They want 24P regardless of how weak it looks by comparison, and that Sony knew people were after the "look" more than the math.
But they fail to mention the AWESOME depth of field this cam gives.
They fail to mention the program modes that will allow for smooth, sweet rack focus or whatever else you want to program in there.
They fail to mention the black/white monitoring or the zoomable monitoring that allows for tight focus control in a hostile/run n' gun environment.
They fail to mention Hypergain, which is a BIG damn deal with it's floating point capability. Read http://www.sony.jp/products/Professional/c_c/ to know more. (it's in Japanese, use a translator)
They fail to mention the SMPTE TC.
They fail to mention the color peaking
They fail to mention the DVCam mode
or the 14 programmable modes
or the dual NTSC or PAL modes...
And so much more!
The lens on this series alone is super slammin, and blows away anything in its class. The Canon XL2 requires the broadcast lens to look this good.
I've seen what this cam can do, and was really impressed with what it shoots and delivers. It's not HDCam, it's certainly not DV. Conforming the MPEG to the intermediary makes for a wonderful experience, giving you 29.97 playback on a reasonably fast system.
I guess this turned into a rant, didn't mean for it to.
John McCully
wrote on 11/14/2004, 7:17 PM
Thanks for the 'rant'. I love it.
May I suggest: don’t bother so much with the failures of the people in the other forums, it is more helpful, certainly for me, may I humbly suggest, that you continue to be open and honest with those of us, quite a few I imagine, who trust your judgement in these matters. It is not a crime to write words while inebriated; the great Irish writers were generally drunks, but writing the words that did our Walter, drunk or sober, is simply a bit stupid.
Dear Spot, many thanks for your input. It seems to me that you are a tireless bastard, in pursuit of excellence, poetic and technical, in the area of moving pictures. You have had a tough week, you rose to the occasion and then rose above it. Good for you. I truly appreciate it.
I bid you smiling warm comfortable rest this Sunday night.
May I suggest: don’t bother so much with the failures of the people in the other forums, it is more helpful, certainly for me, may I humbly suggest, that you continue to be open and honest with those of us, quite a few I imagine, who trust your judgement in these matters. It is not a crime to write words while inebriated; the great Irish writers were generally drunks, but writing the words that did our Walter, drunk or sober, is simply a bit stupid.
Dear Spot, many thanks for your input. It seems to me that you are a tireless bastard, in pursuit of excellence, poetic and technical, in the area of moving pictures. You have had a tough week, you rose to the occasion and then rose above it. Good for you. I truly appreciate it.
I bid you smiling warm comfortable rest this Sunday night.
Spot|DSE
wrote on 11/14/2004, 7:30 PM
Now THERE is eloquence I can appreciate. :-)
Thanks for the advice, Sevente. You've likely noticed I've not been back there. I can't believe the level of discourse there.
To stay on topic, I'm really excited about what HDV brings to DV shooters, folks that want to do great video but can't afford the 40K cameras. (Ebay has an HD cam for 18K right now, not including glass)
This so much reminds me of when DV hit 8 years back or so. Everyone was pissing all over the format. Now, a good 5-10% of what's on television is shot with DV cams. Maybe more.
Thanks for the advice, Sevente. You've likely noticed I've not been back there. I can't believe the level of discourse there.
To stay on topic, I'm really excited about what HDV brings to DV shooters, folks that want to do great video but can't afford the 40K cameras. (Ebay has an HD cam for 18K right now, not including glass)
This so much reminds me of when DV hit 8 years back or so. Everyone was pissing all over the format. Now, a good 5-10% of what's on television is shot with DV cams. Maybe more.
farss
wrote on 11/14/2004, 9:37 PM
I tend to think more than 10%, entire shows are shot on it. Then again it is mostly shot by guys witha fair bit of experience, mostly it's reality shows as well. But I'm suspecting that finishing to 4:2:2 may make for a difference as well.
I'd love to know if I'm right or not on this idea.
Bob.
I'd love to know if I'm right or not on this idea.
Bob.
db
wrote on 11/15/2004, 10:31 PM
i too don't get the 24p Video thing !!! have yet to see a 24p project go to FILM that didn't have the $$ for tape to film transfer in the beginning ..all others are still wishing/hoping...
i really find FILM shot at 24fps transferred to video at 29.97 distracting ..
just don't see why one would want that odd cadence put into their project ?
i shot only FILM 1978-1997 ( was FILM snob) ...2000 to present i shoot dv hand size camera's ( became dv snob) .. last month i started shooting 35mm again (commercials) ... so today i only shoot hand size camera or FILM - nothing in between ( so now dv, hdv & film snob) .. OK i do like the varicam 27HD ... i've only had 1 commercial ( $150K) that ever used a dv camera and that was shot at 30P with 2 camera's - a dvx & elura ( classic original that shot progressive) you can't see the difference as every frame was hand painted ....
i like 30p .. whenever i can i shoot commercials 29.97 ...
i have the sony HDV and really like the 1080i -it's a whole different look/feel ... my camera is going out on rental for a month next week ( nickolodean) don't know why they aren't just buying one ??
IMO HDV will have the same impact on video world/business that mini dv had on the business when it came into being ....
once digital projection comes IMO you'll start to see 24fps slowly fade out.
i really find FILM shot at 24fps transferred to video at 29.97 distracting ..
just don't see why one would want that odd cadence put into their project ?
i shot only FILM 1978-1997 ( was FILM snob) ...2000 to present i shoot dv hand size camera's ( became dv snob) .. last month i started shooting 35mm again (commercials) ... so today i only shoot hand size camera or FILM - nothing in between ( so now dv, hdv & film snob) .. OK i do like the varicam 27HD ... i've only had 1 commercial ( $150K) that ever used a dv camera and that was shot at 30P with 2 camera's - a dvx & elura ( classic original that shot progressive) you can't see the difference as every frame was hand painted ....
i like 30p .. whenever i can i shoot commercials 29.97 ...
i have the sony HDV and really like the 1080i -it's a whole different look/feel ... my camera is going out on rental for a month next week ( nickolodean) don't know why they aren't just buying one ??
IMO HDV will have the same impact on video world/business that mini dv had on the business when it came into being ....
once digital projection comes IMO you'll start to see 24fps slowly fade out.
farss
wrote on 11/16/2004, 2:07 AM
db,
I think what bring all the 24p hubbris on is there's so many good things on the cameras that shoot 24p, of course 35mm looks better, give the same crew and talent a DV camera with the same lenses, matte boxes etc and it'd look pretty damn good, certainly a LOT better than most DV.
That was what I found so attractive about the 100A, living in PAL land the 24p thing wasn't an issue anyway but having a camera with real controls and being able to add much the same kit as the pros was what attracted me.
Now I'm kind of glad I didn't buy one, waiting to see what nice goodies will work with the pro HDV camera.
Bob.
I think what bring all the 24p hubbris on is there's so many good things on the cameras that shoot 24p, of course 35mm looks better, give the same crew and talent a DV camera with the same lenses, matte boxes etc and it'd look pretty damn good, certainly a LOT better than most DV.
That was what I found so attractive about the 100A, living in PAL land the 24p thing wasn't an issue anyway but having a camera with real controls and being able to add much the same kit as the pros was what attracted me.
Now I'm kind of glad I didn't buy one, waiting to see what nice goodies will work with the pro HDV camera.
Bob.